Who Qualifies As A War Hero?

Bill Greenwood · **Posted:** Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:26 am

I think virtually every WIXer would agree the Doolittle guys were war heroes. The volunteered for a very dangerous mission, without even knowing the target or their chances of surviving. Maybe this borders on being so committed as to be rash, since they could not really evaluate the risk vs the reward or danger vs chance of success because they didn't know enough about the mission in advance. It is a miracle that most of them made it back.
It is not aviation, but the Brits who took the mini subs across the North Sea and into the fijords would be up there at the top for bravery. Also the crew who flew the dambusters raid, and lost about half, but did break the 2 largest dams. I just finished the Guy Gibson book, ENEMY COAST AHEAD, Bantam, on that.

garbs · **Posted:** Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:10 pm

So...safe to say that heroes (war or otherwise) are in the mind of the beholder? I can't see this group arriving at a definition that everyone will agree to. Hopefully it's not only someone who risks/gives their life to save others while under fire, and only an those with aw, shucks, "I seen my duty and I done it" attitude need apply. They may rise to the top of the list; I just don't think we can arrive at a place to draw the cutoff line.

If people really need to narrow the definition down so far that only 1/100 of 1% make the grade, then it's going to be a different definition for each person.

Aviation themed part:

My dog chewed up my copy of "Enemy Coast Ahead" several years ago. Ex-dog now, after biting my wife's hand when she was reaching for a cookbook. Knocked over a stack of perfectly chewable magazines to get at it too - p1ssed me off.

Broken-Wrench · **Joined:** Sun Oct 24, 2004 12:37 pm **Posts:** 1197

[quote="O.P."]Me and 98 other guys, were saved by a guy I would call a hero. He was just doing his job. In fact, he was probably only 1 of maybe 2 guys on the boat who could have done what he did in the very short short period of time he did it in, seconds. The problem child wasn't even in his rate. He just knew everything. It was just sh1t eating luck, that he was one of the 10 people there when it happened and was awake. He stopped it immediately at great risk to himself. No nothing. Automatic reaction. Done. Another 10 seconds, and I would be a name read off on a list every 20 years or so on the aniversary of our becoming a creamy red fish food paste and a deep sea radiological hazmat area.

I've been present for several events like this. At least two of them were with this same man. I have come to the conclusion that these cats are wired this way. They are going to go all of the way every time something like that happens in their presence, instantly.

I have been presented with split second bad deal decisions a few times, and I thought about them every time. Thank jeebus we all had those split seconds to burn. I am not the kind of person that that guy was and is. Those people are special, always.

What I am getting at is, just having a particular "Job", does not make you a "Hero". Being present for an event, does not make you a "Hero".

Some jobs that don't make you a "Hero",
Policeman
Fireman
Member of the Military
Teacher
Trucker
High power powerline worker
Nurse
Doctor
Dad
Mom
Granpa
Granma
Logger
Social Worker
Politician
NBA-NFL-PGA-MLB- Olympian- ect
ect
ect

Some things that don't make you a "Hero", by you simply being present there,
911
Pearl Harbor
WWII
WWI
Vietnam
Korea
Iraq 1-Iraq2
Hurricane Katrina-Andrew-ect-ect
The Cold War
ect
ect
ect

I think automatically giving "Hero" status to the people present for these jobs and events, denigrates the people who actually nutted up and gave it all when it counted.

H3ll, in my short life I am a "Hero" ten times over by this criteria. I don't need an ego stroking to do my job, and I didn't pick any job, or was any place, for very few other reasons other than I wanted a paycheck, or, this is a super b1tchin place to be at the time.

As far as McVeigh, Benedict Arnold was a hero too. Screw both of them.

As for McCain/Kerry, McCain said he would stay in prison. Thats enough in my book. The Navy gave Kerry a silver star, thats enough in my book. The fact that both of them served, is enough to earn my respect.

It's been said before, but I'll say it again, the real hero's are still pushing up plants and feeding fish, and in the case of my former profession, "Still on Patrol".

And, Bill,

, I know you sucked me into this "debate", but really, this ain't the place for it, in this format anyway. Take it to the politcal boards, please.......[/quote]I

a guy that wouldn't save a gun shot pregnat lady is not a hero i read somewhere. :roll:

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:41 pm

Just want to throw something else out here. A lot of guys in wartime do things for their buddies, or in combat that might qualify to some folks as heroic. To me, it's only heroic if done in a just cause, or at least in a cause that was reasonably justified to them, and I can see their point of view. For instance, there were a lot of gallant German and Japanese aces, who's bravery I would not question, but who were fighting for a cause, that at least at the outset, was clearly wrong (world domination, racial superiority). Some of them, I might still classify as hero - especially if they were fighting on the Russian front and really and/or truly defending their country and their families from an enemy at least as bad as themselves, or in desperation. Examples might include Hartmann and maybe Muto.
Others, fighting for a good cause, still don't rate as heroes in my book (maybe someone like a Boyington) who seemed out for self-promotion, glory, and prestige all along. I question their motives, and as a result, do not classify them at least as great of heroes as others might. Now however, you take a Blakeslee, or one of the guys who landed his Mustang in enemy territory to bring back his buddy, or a guy who was "just doing his job," and was "finished" but came back for a second tour - not for self promotion, or vainglory, but because they truly believed in the cause, and felt they had to expend more of themselves, that to me is heroic.
So:
1. Has to be done for a just cause (I think that maybe it can be done in a cause that is wrong in the big picture, but you are doing right in what you are responsible for).
2. Has to be done with the right motives.
3. Most of the guys who qualify would tell you that they were just "doing their job.

That pretty much sums it up for me.

Ryan

T2 Ernie · **Posted:** Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:51 pm

Seems to me to be some confusion between bravery or valor and heroism. I believe heroism requires some form of knowing self-sacrifice, not just courage in the face of danger.

Even bravery is relative. Ask most folks we'd consider brave if they consider themselves brave and you're likely to hear talk of how they're trained for this, it's a job, it needed to be done, etc. This self-effacing version of events isn't false modesty, rather truth from their perspective.

True heros rarely consider themselves heros. Most MOH winners are true heros, but of the few I've been fortunate to meet, to a man, all were the most modest men I'd ever met.

Perspective obviously plays a lot.

I've got a Combat Action Medal & Air Medal for a mission I flew in Afghanistan. The citation mentions flying as low as 15 feet to resupply troops in contact. Is that brave? Heroic? Fool-hardy? I don't think so. I had a mission to execute, I had the training & resources to execute it with, and I was fortunate to be successful. I did nothing that day I didn't do on other days, the bad guys just happened to shoot at me that day. Take away being shot at and it was just another resupply - something I do day in and day out. I'm thankful I was successful and there's no denying there's a big ol' slice of luck involved.

Someone else may think I was brave, heroic, or foolhardy, but that's their perspective shaping their opinion. All subjective things. My perspective shapes my opinion that we did nothing we didn't normally do and I'm somewhat embarrassed for receiving medals while "doing my job" - yes, there was enemy present, but that's what I'm trained to do - that is part of my job, a condition of employment, if you will.

I think the guy that jumps on a grenade and saves his buddy's lives is doing much more than his job. Yes he has to be there, yes he has to engage the enemy, yes he has training & resources, but he sure as heck doesn't have to willingly and knowingly sacrifice himself for his friends. That is a hero. That is a war hero.

Medals do not make heroes. Bravery or courage does not make heroes. Willing and knowing self-sacrificing actions, shaped by perspective, makes heroes.

Bill Greenwood · **Posted:** Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:16 am

Ryan, I am not so sure you can rule out a war hero, because his cause might not have been just. What they did may have been heroic, even if it was not for our side, maybe not even for the right side.
Let's go past McCain. I recall a helicopter pilot in Nam, I think he won the MOH, who would not fight or kill. He was a CO, but he'd fly into helll to rescue wounded. Now, I believe the war was wrong, most Americans believe the war was wrong, most of our allies do, and history likely will say we were wrong. We were not attacked by N Vietnam and had no right to invade their country, so one could say his action was not for a just cause and therefore not heroic. BUT I think your version is too strict that way. I think even a German may have been a war hero, by what he did, not who he did it for, or what ideology. I would of course, rule out any mass murder or other type despicable acts.

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Fri Sep 05, 2008 6:26 am

Bill Greenwood wrote:

Ryan, I am not so sure you can rule out a war hero, because his cause might not have been just. What they did may have been heroic, even if it was not for our side, maybe not even for the right side.

Well, you might have noticed I did give a caveat for some... I mentioned Hartmann and Muto. Now, personally, I think that the cause that the Germans and the Japanese fought for in WWII were not just, and frankly repugnant. However, if one takes the micro picture, with say, a Muto - who probably didn't know all of the wicked ideas behind a Tojo, and who was flying in the defense of his homeland, well, I don't like to read about his shooting down Hellcats, and ultimately I think that more Japanese should've stood up and told their government that they were wrong, but I can understand it, and applaud their efforts. Also, just because one country may have a "more just" cause - doesn't give that country the right to do unjust things in the war - like killing many, many civilians and old men and women in Tokyo, etc... I like the fact that we tried to do precision bombing in Europe, I don't like what we did to Dresden and other Japanese cities.

Ryan

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:09 am

I also mentioned the German side - keeping it warbirds related I think that to an extent, Hartmann, the top German ace was a bit of a hero. I mean, to go for as long as he did, just slugging it out with the Russians over the long haul, surviving crashes, bailing out, and going back and doing it again was quite a feat. On the other hand, a bigger German hero, to me, is someone like Dietrich Bonhoeffer who had the guts to tell the German leadership the truth about their cause, and who had the courage to stand up against Hitler. That to me, is a far bigger deal.
Along those same lines, every one of the men who signed our Declaration of Independence did so knowing that it put a price tag on their head...

Ryan

k5083 · **Posted:** Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:15 am

RyanShort1 wrote:

Along those same lines, every one of the men who signed our Declaration of Independence did so knowing that it put a price tag on their head...

Hey, almost half of those were LAWYERS! Okay, now I'm on board!

August

Tangmere Mk II · **Posted:** Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:18 pm

The discussion generally seems to indicate that, in this context, we are considering all-American heroes here. That is an observation, not a criticism by the way.

Are we allowed to consider non American nationals here, please?

Here's a hero for you. Percy Burton. KIA 27 Sep 1940.

Oh, and to keep the balance, "Billy" Fiske. Died of wounds received 16 Aug 1940.

Bill Greenwood · **Posted:** Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:37 pm

Right on, should have thought about Billy Fiske. After winning the Olympic bobsled gold at 16 in 1932, he came to Aspen to investigate starting alpine skiing here, along with Ted Ryan. They had a small hill just outside town. I never met Billy of course, but I once tried to buy a lot from Ted who has since passed on . As the war started Billy volunteered to join the RAF, even before there was officially an Eagle Squadron. He attacked a German bomber, Stuka, and his Hurricane was hit in the fuel tank by the rear gunner before he shot it down. He crash landed back at Tangmere, but was too badly burned and died the next day. He was the first American to join the RAF, one of 7 who fought in the Battle of Britain, and the first casualty.
Way too young with way too much life ahead of him, but like one of those comets that burns brightly, but not long.

muddyboots · **Posted:** Fri Sep 05, 2008 6:42 pm

T2 Ernie wrote:

Medals do not make heroes. Bravery or courage does not make heroes. Willing and knowing self-sacrificing actions, shaped by perspective, makes heroes.

You get it

I have a fistful of awards for just doing my job, or worse, not knowing what the hell was going on and impressing eveyrbody with my "courage"
I'm not saying I wasn't a pretty tough feller, but that's what I was supposed to be. I suppose you could claim that just by raising yoru hand and volunteering you are in fact making a sacrifice of your life, if only for the time you were in. I mean, it's not like it's an easy life, and we do it when others do not. But I don't think so. For me it was an adventure. I ;liked feeling like Captain America too.

I don't even think I was particularly brave. You grit your teeth, you focus on the task at hand, and you do what you have to do to end the situation without your guys getting hurt. That's not bravery imo, that's just doing your job. I was always impressed by those guys who were scared pissles, and did the job anyway. Even in a volunteer army, you still see them. If you've been in a fight, you'll know what I mean: pale skin, and rapid breathing, twitchy eyes and maybe they're a little jerky. But they do it anyway. THOSE guys are mastering their fear and making themselves be there for me. THOSE guys are the ones I'll always love and appreciate. becaus ethey were really and opbviously fighting every instinct they had to be safe. I was too stupid to get scared, imo. That's not brave, it's just dumb.

Jack Cook · **Posted:** Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:06 pm

Quote:

Willing and knowing self-sacrificing actions, shaped by perspective, makes heroes.

This man is the purest definition of the word hero :idea:

A1C Bill "Pits" Pitsenbarger USAF MOH KIA
Flying on almost 300 rescue missions in Vietnam, Bill Pitsenbarger risked his life almost daily during the war rescuing downed Soldiers and Airmen. On April 11, 1966, the 21-year-old known as "Pits" to his friends was killed while defending some of his wounded comrades. For his bravery and sacrifice, he was posthumously awarded the nation's highest military decorations, the Medal of Honor and the Air Force Cross.

muddyboots · **Posted:** Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:34 pm

And that about ends the thread. A man with balls, compassion, and a sense of greater things.

JDK · **Posted:** Sat Sep 06, 2008 2:29 am

Oh, I don't know.

For pure cold blooded courage, I think the Aussies in the Royal Navy Volunteer Reserve who dealt with the German booby-trapped mines are hard to get round (it's not a competition, but these guys were heroes to me when I was a kid, and they still are.) I don't think most people will have come across their stories, so here's a sadly dull version of an unbelievable, true tale. How did a bunch of Aussie amateur yachtsmen end up saving whole blocks of British cities from booby trapped German parachute mines?

Red, Mould and Syme. The mines they defused were fitted with anti-tamper devices; light cells (one guy shone a torch into the cell, luckily it was broken) tremblers, reversed wiring, and all the tricks and traps that could be devised, and which changed daily, or monthly. At best they has 17 seconds to get clear if the fuse started to run. Usually less. A bit of verdigris in the mechanism could and was the difference between life and death.

Hugh Randall Syme

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Randall_Syme

Quote:

n 1943 he was awarded the George Cross "for great bravery and undaunted devotion to duty". He had carried out nineteen mine-recovery operations. The most important had taken place in November 1942 at Weston-super-Mare, Somerset, where he defused a new mine known as a Type T. He had to hang upside down in a mudhole and endure painful electric shocks while insulating the wires for the detonator. His George Cross made him the most decorated member of the Royal Australian Navy at that time.
...
He was awarded the Queen Elizabeth II Coronation Medal in 1953 but turned down a knighthood, feeling that he had performed no more than his duty.

http://www.adb.online.anu.edu.au/biogs/A160426b.htm

Quote:

With John Mould, H. D. Reid and J. H. H. Kessack, he was one of the first Australians chosen to serve in the Royal Navy's Rendering Mines Safe section which had been established to disarm unexploded (and often booby-trapped) bombs and mines scattered across Britain by German aircraft.

Syme was promoted lieutenant on 17 December 1940 and posted to the naval base H.M.S. Vernon, where he quickly gained a reputation for courage and initiative. He was awarded the George Medal in June 1941 for his coolness in dealing with ten mines. In June 1942 he was awarded a Bar to his G.M. for disarming a mine that had lodged deep in clay in a reservoir embankment at Primrose Hill, London. After tunnelling to the mine, he found that the fuse was on the other side, and had to tunnel around it. His action in disarming the weapon in extraordinarily difficult and dangerous conditions saved the neighbourhood from possible flooding.

On 3 March 1943 Syme was awarded the George Cross for carrying out nineteen mine-recovery operations. The most important had taken place in November 1942 at Weston-super-Mare, Somerset, where he defused a new mine known as a Type T. He endured painful electric shocks while insulating the detonator wires and at one stage hung upside down in a mud hole. Other clearance officers found the information he had gained from the Type T invaluable. The award of his G.C. made Syme the most highly decorated officer in the R.A.N. at that time. His expertise was such that, despite the scepticism of the scientists who devised it, he defused a new British magnetic mine, much to their chagrin. Some of them refused to speak to him for months.

http://www.adb.online.anu.edu.au/biogs/A150499b.htm

John Stuart Mould

Quote:

With Hugh Syme, H. D. Reid and J. H. H. Kessack, he volunteered for 'special duties ashore'—service in the Royal Navy's Rendering Mines Safe section. He was provisionally promoted lieutenant in December and posted to H.M.S. Vernon.

The R.M.S. section had been established to assist in disarming the large number of unexploded bombs and mines strewn across Britain by German aircraft. Although most of the work involved bombs, the R.M.S.'s naval personnel were primarily concerned with 'delousing' German sea mines which had been dropped on land or washed ashore. Mould performed 'outstanding work on dock clearance operations and those resulting in the stripping of the early German mine Type G'. He received a commendation for bravery in June 1941 and won the George Medal in April 1942.

Among numerous assignments, Mould recovered, rendered safe and investigated 'the first German magnetic acoustic unit and moored magnetic mine'. The successful dismantling of such weapons allowed British scientists to identify their triggering mechanisms and thus devise countermeasures. In addition to the usual hazards of handling explosives, Mould and his colleagues had to contend with booby traps set to detonate the mines if attempts were made to disarm and disassemble them. He was awarded (November 1942) the George Cross for 'great gallantry and devotion to duty'.

J. H. H. Kessack, 'Red' was killed in rendering a mine safe.

There were few dealing with this level of malevolent technology before; their inheritors have the same requirements today, but rarely operate with as little training, knowledge and time as these men faced.

Hope it's of interest. 'Softly Tread the Brave' by Ivan Southall is their story.

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