Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:36 am
CAPFlyer wrote:As for the mentoring, it's something we (the senior members) try to do, but it's the same problem I had in Boy Scouts (that lead to me leaving) - if the parents aren't doing their part to set the foundation, it's hard as heck to fix them with an hour a week and a couple of weekends a year.
How do CAP senior members feel about the whole mentorship thing? When I was a cadet, I honestly had zero interaction with the senior members of my squadron -- I never felt like they were actively guiding the development of cadets.
In retrospect, I really could have used some of those guys to actively come out of their office and engage cadets. Instead, the majority of my time was spent with briefings from senior cadets and practicing marching. If my experience is any example, then there are many motivated, well-intentioned CAP cadets out there who are just looking for some mentorship.
Having never been a senior member, quite frankly I don't know what their charter is or how they're supposed to execute that charter.
In fact, this whole discussion makes me want to find a local CAP squadron and go sign up to be a senior member...but I don't think there are too many squadrons over here in the UK.
Apologies for the righteous thread-jack here.
Mandatory on-topic content....any more opinions on what really happened BESIDES that the security might have been over-zealous?
Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:43 am
I think this is on topic since it's relating to FLS and actions therein.
As for CAP Senior Members, my Cadet Squadron (when I was a Cadet), the seniors were actively involved, but part of the idea of having Cadet NCOs and Officers is that they do most of the leading and the Seniors do most of the instruction. Recently, they've started changing the Moral Leadership program into a Character Development program and there's a lot of hope that this new program will encourage the Development Officers to be more proactive in helping the cadets develop and will be more in-tune with what cadets need today in the way of how to act out in the world. I know that a lot of it depends on what kind of squadron you're in too. Composite Squadrons have both Senior and Cadet programs so the Seniors are dealing with their own training just as much as the cadets. Cadet Squadrons the seniors are mainly there to lead and train the cadets so you'll see more direct interaction there.
I think a lot of it too has to do with the training. CAP's current FLS and FLM training programs are pretty basic and for FLS it's pretty much - "Don't let anyone cross the line, don't do anything stupid, don't get blown away or burned up." It's up to the senior Officer in Charge to make sure additional training is done, but too often FLS is done on an "as needed" basis and little pre-event training is undertaken. However, some of that is due to the Airshows as well. They don't give any information to the CAP leadership before the show on how to determine things like who crews are and what kind of credentials are in place for those authorized to enter the flight line. I know that the AirSho guys do that with the CAP Squadrons involved, but I also know that several airshows I went to didn't and that caused as much problem as anything else because we honestly didn't know who was authorized and who wasn't until we got into the day and were able to see most of the credentials that were on the field.
As for CAP Senior Members, my Cadet Squadron (when I was a Cadet), the seniors were actively involved, but part of the idea of having Cadet NCOs and Officers is that they do most of the leading and the Seniors do most of the instruction. Recently, they've started changing the Moral Leadership program into a Character Development program and there's a lot of hope that this new program will encourage the Development Officers to be more proactive in helping the cadets develop and will be more in-tune with what cadets need today in the way of how to act out in the world. I know that a lot of it depends on what kind of squadron you're in too. Composite Squadrons have both Senior and Cadet programs so the Seniors are dealing with their own training just as much as the cadets. Cadet Squadrons the seniors are mainly there to lead and train the cadets so you'll see more direct interaction there.
I think a lot of it too has to do with the training. CAP's current FLS and FLM training programs are pretty basic and for FLS it's pretty much - "Don't let anyone cross the line, don't do anything stupid, don't get blown away or burned up." It's up to the senior Officer in Charge to make sure additional training is done, but too often FLS is done on an "as needed" basis and little pre-event training is undertaken. However, some of that is due to the Airshows as well. They don't give any information to the CAP leadership before the show on how to determine things like who crews are and what kind of credentials are in place for those authorized to enter the flight line. I know that the AirSho guys do that with the CAP Squadrons involved, but I also know that several airshows I went to didn't and that caused as much problem as anything else because we honestly didn't know who was authorized and who wasn't until we got into the day and were able to see most of the credentials that were on the field.
Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:54 am
Don't know if they were adult CAP or Iowa Guard, but there were some uniformed people working the Quad Cities show this year that reflected quite poorly on their organization.
Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:57 am
As a senior member in CAP for more than 26 years, I would like to comment on some of the issues raised above.
I was in a Senior Squadron, so there were no cadets in my unit, and I interacted with them only at Group and Wing events. There were the usual percentage of para-military cadets, the gung-ho types that attempted to terrorize everyone else, but most of the cadets were good folks, and did what they were told correctly. This is where the rub comes, however, in that their level of instruction was quite frequently far below what was required to perform the job in an efficient and courteous manner. I fault their senior leadership for most of this.
I had a son who was in a Composite Squadron, and stayed about 18 months, until he had his fill of the gung-ho types and quit. I really couldn't blame him, as these kids bent the rules to suit themselves and their friends, and the senior leadership let them get away with it. As I was the Commander of my squadron at the time, I had several one-on-one conversations with their Commander, and got promises that things would change, but nothing ever did.
The saluting issue was one I made painfully clear to my squadron members. The exchange of salutes between CAP and military members was a courtesy, and definitely not a regulation. I always encouraged them to salute senior military officers, and to return the salutes of junior officers and enlisted personnel, but if a junior officer or enlisted member did not salute you, let it go. They were not required to do so.
Most of the time when you observe CAP cadets behaving inappropriately, you can trace it back to inadequate instruction and preparation by their senior leadership.
And yes, there are bad apples in the senior ranks as well. I've run across some real a$$e$ in my 26 years.
Walt
I was in a Senior Squadron, so there were no cadets in my unit, and I interacted with them only at Group and Wing events. There were the usual percentage of para-military cadets, the gung-ho types that attempted to terrorize everyone else, but most of the cadets were good folks, and did what they were told correctly. This is where the rub comes, however, in that their level of instruction was quite frequently far below what was required to perform the job in an efficient and courteous manner. I fault their senior leadership for most of this.
I had a son who was in a Composite Squadron, and stayed about 18 months, until he had his fill of the gung-ho types and quit. I really couldn't blame him, as these kids bent the rules to suit themselves and their friends, and the senior leadership let them get away with it. As I was the Commander of my squadron at the time, I had several one-on-one conversations with their Commander, and got promises that things would change, but nothing ever did.
The saluting issue was one I made painfully clear to my squadron members. The exchange of salutes between CAP and military members was a courtesy, and definitely not a regulation. I always encouraged them to salute senior military officers, and to return the salutes of junior officers and enlisted personnel, but if a junior officer or enlisted member did not salute you, let it go. They were not required to do so.
Most of the time when you observe CAP cadets behaving inappropriately, you can trace it back to inadequate instruction and preparation by their senior leadership.
And yes, there are bad apples in the senior ranks as well. I've run across some real a$$e$ in my 26 years.
Walt
Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:10 am
RareBear wrote:As a senior member in CAP for more than 26 years, I would like to comment on some of the issues raised above.
I was in a Senior Squadron, so there were no cadets in my unit, and I interacted with them only at Group and Wing events. There were the usual percentage of para-military cadets, the gung-ho types that attempted to terrorize everyone else, but most of the cadets were good folks, and did what they were told correctly. This is where the rub comes, however, in that their level of instruction was quite frequently far below what was required to perform the job in an efficient and courteous manner. I fault their senior leadership for most of this.
I had a son who was in a Composite Squadron, and stayed about 18 months, until he had his fill of the gung-ho types and quit. I really couldn't blame him, as these kids bent the rules to suit themselves and their friends, and the senior leadership let them get away with it. As I was the Commander of my squadron at the time, I had several one-on-one conversations with their Commander, and got promises that things would change, but nothing ever did.
The saluting issue was one I made painfully clear to my squadron members. The exchange of salutes between CAP and military members was a courtesy, and definitely not a regulation. I always encouraged them to salute senior military officers, and to return the salutes of junior officers and enlisted personnel, but if a junior officer or enlisted member did not salute you, let it go. They were not required to do so.
Most of the time when you observe CAP cadets behaving inappropriately, you can trace it back to inadequate instruction and preparation by their senior leadership.
And yes, there are bad apples in the senior ranks as well. I've run across some real a$$e$ in my 26 years.
Walt
This pretty well sums up what you'll find in any para military organization. The bottom line is that organizations like CAP are extremely dependent on seniors who are motivated to administer the program from the top on down. This assumes a positive motivation by those joining organizations like CAP. ANY and ALL OTHER motivation other than this required positive motivation degrades the program considerably.
Unfortunately for CAP, the very nature of the program, both the wearing of the uniform AND the opportunity to administer authority are the EXACT factors that lure some with the wrong incentives to join.
I wouldn't attempt to put a solid percentage on this factor but in the case of CAP and my personal experience with the organization, it is high enough to have been noticeable and of concern to me as a senior member of the organization.
In the 50 odd years I've been in professional aviation, I've both tried the CAP as a senior member and watched as an outsider how the program is administered by it's members. I've of course seen highly motivated people take part, but on average, I'm afraid I'd have to give CAP an overall failing grade based on my exposure to the program.
This by no means is meant to infer the program is a failure, but rather simply one man's personal experience and observation.
Leadership
Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:28 am
In fact, this whole discussion makes me want to find a local CAP squadron and go sign up to be a senior member...but I don't think there are too many squadrons over here in the UK.
You mean to tell me there aren't any dependents in England? I'll bet if you did it, you would be swamped with people.
I was peripherally involved with the CAP when I was in ROTC and the reserves. The crop of cadets that came up with me into college were led by a bunch of very competent, but wild, gung-ho types. While they were very military in bearing and training, they were also very inclusive and team-building. Out of that group, there were several military aviators, including one who won the DFC in Afghanistan. Two of them went on toe become high-ranking law enforcement officers. The crop after them had different leadership, and most of those cadets did nothing with the military and none of them stayed in the CAP. It is all leadership. I am hesitant to join the CAP because the units I have found locally leave a lot to be desired in the leadership role and I don't want to conflict with their programs. I had some experience bringing a composite squadron to an airport that I was involved with. When the daughter of the squadron commander was caught drinking and it was covered up, I decided it was not for me.
I don't mean to further digress this thread, but this lack of leadership in CAP and elsewhere reflects a general lack of initiative in society. People are not as willing to step up into a leadership role for many reasons- lawsuits, variances in parenting standards with children, and cultural clashes are just some of the reasons. This is not just a CAP problem.
Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:09 pm
kenlyco wrote:What do you think these guy's are talking about?
Village People auditions ?
Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:24 pm
richkolasa wrote:51fixer wrote:If I need to repeat this it will be through a lawyer!
...
Rich
PS- Data Plate, original or recreated not included.
Ah, you don't frighten me. I doubt that you even know a lawyer!
How's Ben? If there's anything I can do, give me a shout?
Ben is improving in mind and body.
He and some mates from Shepherd Center went to see a movie. He is joking that he will run over his brother in his chair. He got rid of his neck brace last week and they are trying to wean him off of the traich over the next week or so. He has been able to move his feet a bit. There is word of him possibly coming home the end of Sept.
You can continue to leave messages at http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/benstear
We held another car wash a week ago Sat and raised $1400. The Wayne Gretzky Foundation has donated and we have had support and gifts from Jack Roush, several of his drivers as well as some NHL players past and present. Check out benstear.org as there is a Golf Outing and a Benefit dinner/auction coming up next month. They are looking for auction items and hole sponsors for these. Jim is giving a Bald Eagle Mustang Flight to auction which is great of him.
Rich
Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:29 pm
The attitudes you guys are talking about here is displayed by a group of incompetant halfwits that in the UK are refered to as "Jobsworths".
This is because if you try to reason with them the standard reply is something along the lines of "It's more than my jobs worth to allow you to do that" Meaning they are only being a compelete idiot for fear of loosing their job, however, they ALL lack any mental capacity to reason.
In the UK you only have to refer to someone as a "jobsworth" & everyone immediately knows the kind of person you are talking about..
From Wiki:
This is because if you try to reason with them the standard reply is something along the lines of "It's more than my jobs worth to allow you to do that" Meaning they are only being a compelete idiot for fear of loosing their job, however, they ALL lack any mental capacity to reason.
In the UK you only have to refer to someone as a "jobsworth" & everyone immediately knows the kind of person you are talking about..
From Wiki:
A jobsworth is a person who uses his or her job description in a deliberately un-cooperative way, or who seemingly delights in acting in an obstructive or unhelpful manner[1] [2]. Jonathon Green (see Bibliography) defines "jobsworth" as "a minor factotum whose only status comes from enforcing otherwise petty regulations". The term comes from the phrase "I can't do that, it's more than my job's worth". 'Jobsworth' is an almost exclusively British term.
The term was first coined in the UK by folk-singer Jeremy Taylor in a song he wrote in the late 1960s ("Jobsworth, Jobsworth, Its more than me job's worth, I can keep you waiting for hours in the queue, And if you don't like it you know what you can do"), but it became widespread in vernacular English through its use in the popular 1970s BBC television programme That's Life! which featured Esther Rantzen covering various human interest and consumer topics. A "Jobsworth of the Week" commissionaire's hat was awarded each week to "a startling tale of going by the book".[3]
The term remains current, particularly in the UK, to characterise officious and inflexible employees, petty rule-following and excessive administration.[4]
Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:17 pm
ZRX61,
".....and this just in to the K BS R news room, Homeland Security Czar Avery Burns has just announced that TSA employees who prove they can write whole, intellegent sentences, will now begin flight training and cabin attendant school so they can continually harrass you during your entire flight.... Mr. Burns' comment 'excellent' if permitted, film at 11...."
".....and this just in to the K BS R news room, Homeland Security Czar Avery Burns has just announced that TSA employees who prove they can write whole, intellegent sentences, will now begin flight training and cabin attendant school so they can continually harrass you during your entire flight.... Mr. Burns' comment 'excellent' if permitted, film at 11...."
Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:19 pm
We got two pages about Patty and two pages about the CAP. Any more news on Miss Wagstaff?
Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:25 pm
NAW!!! we're all having way too much fun spearing the Security folks at OSH and their mis-guided approach to Secuity, anyone else noticed that EAA hasn't responded to any of this or put out any sort of explaination/blame shifter press releases yet????? 
????
Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:40 pm
anyone else noticed that EAA hasn't responded to any of this
I wonder why..........
CAP
Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:35 pm
Let
Last edited by Bill Greenwood on Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: CAP
Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:56 pm
Let's remember two things about CAp cadets . Their purpose, to keep people from being injured by planes, is of vital importance. Also they may be just kids and doing that job as best they know how or have been instructed.
Al, as for guns there were two guys in brown suits at the Ultralights, also two guys in white shirts at the food concessions at midfield, all with guns. Maybe the are Travolta's guards. Also some others aound the outside. I was not on theside with the Raptors, don't know about guns over there.
Al, as for guns there were two guys in brown suits at the Ultralights, also two guys in white shirts at the food concessions at midfield, all with guns. Maybe the are Travolta's guards. Also some others aound the outside. I was not on theside with the Raptors, don't know about guns over there.