Whats up with Wagstaff at Oskosh

[spookythecat]

I wondered about the security at Airventure. It is the first time I can remember a bunch of people carrying guns. I wonder if they have gotten some sort of threats or inside information of threats that aren't made public. I hope it is not just that some outside for hire security company has sold EAA on the idea that people should be treated rudely until proven innocent and not the other way around.
I was down at the ultralights and the tram brought a group of critically ill kids, Make A Wish, families down to go for rides. This was great, but they had two armed narcs with them. Unless there is something we don't know it seems out of place, and a bad example for the kids. The Oshkosh show is one place I have always thought was essenttialy crime free, and armed goons weren't needed. It will be a shame if we have gotten to that point as a society.

I'm not sure who all you saw with guns. I know the people who watch over the Raptor and other jets across the runway are armed pretty well and they occasionally make trips to Aeroshell to see how things are going there as well. Aside from them i'd think the cops are the only others with guns.

[Jack Cook]

Those Civil Air Patrol kids can be rude little $hit$

Went to a show once with a friend in his P-51.
Standing in front it one of the little storm troopers actually put hands on him after
ordering us away front the a/c and only getting a snicker in reply.

[Moonlight]

Those Civil Air Patrol kids can be rude little $hit$

It comes with the required CAP lobotomy upon induction...

[Kudzu]

Hi,
At the FBO I work at, I've had to stop charter passengers from trying to walk across a busy ramp entrance (we had a shuttle bus making runs). I explain that them being sucked up in a jet engine will look bad on my resume, while giving a big smile. They usually chuckle and follow my instructions to wait for the bus! It's all about the security person's "presentation". I've dealt with "protective details" (for the candidates) most of whom had a good sense of humor about the whole dog and pony show going on while doing an important job. They could deal with problems without saying a word. When you start using volunteers/low paid staff, it only takes one bad apple turning into Napoleon to ruin it for everyone!
The funniest airshow security event I ever saw was at Shaw AFB years ago. We were walking back to our AN-2 when the pilot/owner decides to take a short-cut under the RED rope and across a ramp full of ready to go F-16s. The rest of us go around the box while watching to see what would happen. The polite SPs picked up our pilot and took him back to his starting point at the rope line instead of towards our plane! We all got a good laugh about it later.

It will be interesting to see what really happened in this case,
Brian

PS We did shows with Patty and she always seemed nice enough to everyone when I was around (and trust me at the O club parties you'll hear what pilots really think of each other!)

PPS I have also been jumped by a ROTC or CAP about being near "my" airplane. It was a rather short conversation, during which I stayed polite (as long as you don't consider giggling impolite!). Back to my one bad apple comment. At most shows, we tried to give rides to the "good" cap cadets for doing a really thankless job.

[spookythecat]

One of my CAP experiences this year happened on the Warbird ramp in Oshkosh. The Wildcat was getting ready to taxi out so I rushed over to get pictures. This CAP kid wouldn't let me across the taxiway because the airplane was "coming that way". I didn't have my security hat or shirt on at the time so I knew not to bother trying to tell him I knew exactly what was going on here. What I did tell him was the Wildcat was most certainly not coming this way because if he was i'd have been running like hell because there was a fuel truck filling up a T-28 in that row. I know that's what they're told to do but a little common sense programmed in would be helpful.

[CAPFlyer]

Al,

You have to remember that for most of these kids it's their first time at a major event and they're doing what they're told. They don't have enough experience yet and their first thought is the same as yours was the first time - I don't want to f*ck up and get in trouble or get someone killed. There's a politer way of doing it, but a lot of that comes with experience as well.

Guys, I know you like harping on the kids, but remember that they are kids. You have no way of knowing how much flight line security experience they have and you need to be thankful that at least there's some kids at least passingly interested in aviation who would volunteer their time to be at an airshow serving in an important security and safety function instead of being able to enjoy the show.

As I've said before, the cadet who touched Jack's friend stepped over the line and should have been reported for doing so as the use of force isn't allowed in CAP for any reason.

[spookythecat]

Al,

You have to remember that for most of these kids it's their first time at a major event and they're doing what they're told. They don't have enough experience yet and their first thought is the same as yours was the first time - I don't want to f*ck up and get in trouble or get someone killed. There's a politer way of doing it, but a lot of that comes with experience as well.

Guys, I know you like harping on the kids, but remember that they are kids. You have no way of knowing how much flight line security experience they have and you need to be thankful that at least there's some kids at least passingly interested in aviation who would volunteer their time to be at an airshow serving in an important security and safety function instead of being able to enjoy the show.

As I've said before, the cadet who touched Jack's friend stepped over the line and should have been reported for doing so as the use of force isn't allowed in CAP for any reason.

I realize they're kids. I started my security job as a kid too. That's why I didn't push the issue, waited and gave up what may have been a good shot. The comment about the gas truck was just some light ribbing to him. I'm sure he'd heard much worse through the week.

[Robbie Roberts]

I am sorta a CAP member, but haven't made a meeting in over a year... The kids are trying to do good usually- but I can think on one older(like 17 year old) senior CAP NCO who was planning to go into the Navy Seals(he did, too) who told an Active Duty USAF Lt. Col. that the USAF was a bunch of pu--ies!(and NOT puppies!) I heard the recording of the conversation- and that kid found himself on the outside looking in REAL QUICK!It was almost funny- and that Col. had great self control for not disassembling the tyro seal piece by piece... You just don't say that s--t to a Lt. Col!

Robbie
still chuckling at that one...

[kenlyco]

What do you think these guy's are talking about?

[DoraNineFan]

There are plenty of security people in the world who take themselves too seriously. Like the uniformed 14 year old who called me down in the Warbirds area on the Sunday before the show opened... "SIR, I'M GOING TO HAVE TO ASK YOU TO MOVE AWAY FROM THE UNMARKED LINE YOU'RE STANDING NEAR..." You'd have thought the kid was on a Presidential security detail and I was carrying a backpack full of plastique.

Those Civil Air Patrol kids can be rude little $hit$

Which is one reason I attend far fewer air shows. I thought the CAP were an aviation enthusiast group for kids, not a paramilitary organization. Several years ago, I saw some 13-14 year old running around a CAF show barking orders at everyone and I thought he was taking himself way too seriously (or his parents or superiors were encouraging it.) It didn't convey a pleasant atmosphere for the show at all.

Last edited by DoraNineFan on Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

[Randy Haskin]

I am sorta a CAP member, but haven't made a meeting in over a year... The kids are trying to do good usually- but I can think on one older(like 17 year old) senior CAP NCO who was planning to go into the Navy Seals(he did, too) who told an Active Duty USAF Lt. Col. that the USAF was a bunch of pu--ies!(and NOT puppies!) I heard the recording of the conversation- and that kid found himself on the outside looking in REAL QUICK!It was almost funny- and that Col. had great self control for not disassembling the tyro seal piece by piece... You just don't say that s--t to a Lt. Col!

That kind of junk is not just limited to the cadets...when I was a Captain at the Seymour Johnson airshow standing in front of the T-38 I'd brought to the show, I had a CAP "Lt Col" get into it with me about why I didn't salute him.

#1 - We don't salute on the flightline when we're not wearing hats.

#2 - No matter how much he wanted to be, a CAP officer is not a US military commissioned officer.

I was a CAP cadet back in the day, and I thought it was a great organiztion. I learned a lot and had some fun, too. I simply could not stand the "gonnabes" -- the cadets who had it in their mind that because they were going to enlist in the future (and convinced they were going to have one particular job they wanted), that it somehow gave them some kind of authority or legitimacy currently.

I've spoken to some CAP cadets who were on base tours where I've been stationed, and they would talk crap about the jet I flew. "Yeah, the F-15Es not nearly as cool as the F-16!" One kid said, "Twice the people on board, but half the capabilities of the Viper!" Ya gotta be sh*ttin me. The cadet that dropped that last little bit of knowledge on me then went on to tell me how he was "going to fly an F-16"...and he knew this even though he hadn't even gotten his high school diploma yet. Riiight.

Sort of like the "future" SEAL mentioned above. You can talk trash when that Budweiser is actually on your uniform. For the CAP kids, until you're actually wearing a set of USAF wings on your chest and have some actual fighter time in your logbok, keep your trap shut and your opinions to yourself -- or at least express them in a way that doesn't make it sound like you actually fly the jet (or are a SEAL) yourself.

Sort of like that old joke we tell around the squadron...."What do you call a Major-select?" "A Captain". Point being, it doesn't matter what you are going to be, only what you are.

Anyway, the CAP like any other organization has its share of good and bad people. The opportunities it offers kids is great, and I certainly have a lot of buddies, myself included, who are happy to have been part of the organization.

I think that many of the cadets who perform airshow security, though, could use just a little more mentorship on how to perform the job courteously.

[The Inspector]

It's pretty much always the same at any sort of 'once a year' event, give out a few red sashes to some locals with an over blown sense of 'it's me guarding the entire world against xxxxx'.
Those types remind me of the 'cigarette cop' in the movie "Cold Turkey' the CAP 14 year olds I dealt with in past years are now quite probably TSA gropers @ the airport. These are the kind of folks who become small town cops or security guards and become zealots with an overly active imagination and, occasionally do some really dumb/tragic thing thinking they are good to go with virtue.
Unfortunate that the EAA decided to arm some or all of them as ugly things can happen in a split second over a mis- accented vowel directed at someone who's washers may not all be snugged down-but it seems to endemic to our times given the 'chicken little' mindset we've been subjected to over the recent years by those who got elected (or appointed) to higher office, 'every one uv 'em is a suspect, I don't trust enny uv 'em' OH gosh it's a code vermillion today, someone far*ed.

[krlang]

What do you think these guy's are talking about?

Donuts!

[CAPFlyer]

I think that many of the cadets who perform airshow security, though, could use just a little more mentorship on how to perform the job courteously.

I agree with this a lot. I've got a personal bent against one of our local squadrons for their failure to teach practical marshalling and using 2-3 times the number of marshallers required to move aircraft at local fly-ins they work. Eventually I'll fix it, but there's only so much you can do at a time.

As for the mentoring, it's something we (the senior members) try to do, but it's the same problem I had in Boy Scouts (that lead to me leaving) - if the parents aren't doing their part to set the foundation, it's hard as hell to fix them with an hour a week and a couple of weekends a year.

[Dudley Henriques]

I am sorta a CAP member, but haven't made a meeting in over a year... The kids are trying to do good usually- but I can think on one older(like 17 year old) senior CAP NCO who was planning to go into the Navy Seals(he did, too) who told an Active Duty USAF Lt. Col. that the USAF was a bunch of pu--ies!(and NOT puppies!) I heard the recording of the conversation- and that kid found himself on the outside looking in REAL QUICK!It was almost funny- and that Col. had great self control for not disassembling the tyro seal piece by piece... You just don't say that s--t to a Lt. Col!

That kind of junk is not just limited to the cadets...when I was a Captain at the Seymour Johnson airshow standing in front of the T-38 I'd brought to the show, I had a CAP "Lt Col" get into it with me about why I didn't salute him.

#1 - We don't salute on the flightline when we're not wearing hats.

#2 - No matter how much he wanted to be, a CAP officer is not a US military commissioned officer.

I was a CAP cadet back in the day, and I thought it was a great organiztion. I learned a lot and had some fun, too. I simply could not stand the "gonnabes" -- the cadets who had it in their mind that because they were going to enlist in the future (and convinced they were going to have one particular job they wanted), that it somehow gave them some kind of authority or legitimacy currently.

I've spoken to some CAP cadets who were on base tours where I've been stationed, and they would talk crap about the jet I flew. "Yeah, the F-15Es not nearly as cool as the F-16!" One kid said, "Twice the people on board, but half the capabilities of the Viper!" Ya gotta be sh*ttin me. The cadet that dropped that last little bit of knowledge on me then went on to tell me how he was "going to fly an F-16"...and he knew this even though he hadn't even gotten his high school diploma yet. Riiight.

Sort of like the "future" SEAL mentioned above. You can talk trash when that Budweiser is actually on your uniform. For the CAP kids, until you're actually wearing a set of USAF wings on your chest and have some actual fighter time in your logbok, keep your trap shut and your opinions to yourself -- or at least express them in a way that doesn't make it sound like you actually fly the jet (or are a SEAL) yourself.

Sort of like that old joke we tell around the squadron...."What do you call a Major-select?" "A Captain". Point being, it doesn't matter what you are going to be, only what you are.

Anyway, the CAP like any other organization has its share of good and bad people. The opportunities it offers kids is great, and I certainly have a lot of buddies, myself included, who are happy to have been part of the organization.

I think that many of the cadets who perform airshow security, though, could use just a little more mentorship on how to perform the job courteously.

Reading this, I see that it pretty much mirrors my own experience with CAP; a great idea, but only as good or bad as it's people.
I finally cashed it in with CAP after realizing that in our area anyway, the "wanna-bees" outnumbered the " just show up and do the job" people

One bright spot for me in the CAP experience was in taking one cadet who had both a keen interest in flying and the intelligence to follow it through from a cadet through his flight training with me as his CFI on to graduation as a Naval Aviator.
Today, he's a Captain for a major.