Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:44 pm
mustangdriver wrote:It seems here that you can say anything you want about the national museums, but if you whisper anything about a private owner or flying warbird, you are in the wrong.
Chris,
Please don't take the comments folks are making here personally. Being a national museum opens the museum up to national accountability. There is a very real sense in which the items there are national treasures - and they should be preserved as well as possible and treated as such. Frankly, if what I'm reading is true, some of the standards stink. Sure, the plane never may fly again, but that's no excuse for permanently disabling the aircraft... and destroying evidence for future generations.
Ryan
Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:53 pm
So it really does come apart there, huh? Makes me wonder if some you so-called "experts" did any research whatsoever before posting and immediately assuming it was hacked apart with a chainsaw. In the future it would be nice if we could make informed comments instead of assuming the worst, especially if we don't know exactly how the aircraft can be disassembled.
I think the point here is that the aircraft has been transported incorrectly, rather than, "BLAH BLAH BLAH the NMUSAF sucks and they wreck all their aircraft, BLAH BLAH BLAH." Yes that is not the correct way they should be transporting the aircraft. I for one would hate to see all of Mike's hard work that he has done on the aircraft be destroyed or damaged because of careless preparation for transit. I think the NMUSAF is great museum, but they did handle this very poorly. You would think that they would take a little more care when transporting one of their aircraft. However, lets keep the discussion relevant to the transport of THIS aircraft, instead of going off an irrelevant tangents about other things we do or don't like about the NMUSAF. Hopefully, the A-25 arrives undamaged.
I think the point here is that the aircraft has been transported incorrectly, rather than, "BLAH BLAH BLAH the NMUSAF sucks and they wreck all their aircraft, BLAH BLAH BLAH." Yes that is not the correct way they should be transporting the aircraft. I for one would hate to see all of Mike's hard work that he has done on the aircraft be destroyed or damaged because of careless preparation for transit. I think the NMUSAF is great museum, but they did handle this very poorly. You would think that they would take a little more care when transporting one of their aircraft. However, lets keep the discussion relevant to the transport of THIS aircraft, instead of going off an irrelevant tangents about other things we do or don't like about the NMUSAF. Hopefully, the A-25 arrives undamaged.
????
Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:55 pm
and no chainsaw cutting involved that I can see
just on the longerons
Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:55 pm
Jack, Rick is right I was being sarcastic with the names. Rick nice pics, you might want to try and take some from the other side though. Lets be fair about that. I was around, although young when the B-1 resto happened. There are things I can tell you that went on that would amaze even you. But I don't go on a public forum and do that. YOu do it every chance you get. Some of the events go up to a few summers ago here at AGC. But I don't go into to details because I know that even while we don't agree on alot of things, we respect one another. But you can take as many stabs as you like at the NMUSAF full well knowing that there are volunteers on here. Then when some posts pics like this, says it is wrong, and a volunteer from that same organization says, "O.K. this is wrong, how can we do it right next time?" Everyone except for one person continues to just bitch and offer not one solution for next time.
Same thing
Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:12 pm
MustangDriver, as Ryan said please don't take the comments personally
What you said here was the best
What you said here was the best
I try time and time again to be respectful here and before I open my mouth I try to put it in a tasteful manner. I know what a labor of love these aircraft, and museums are to us. SO I try and pay one everyone a little respect. It would be nice to get it back.
Jack, Pappy Boyington is the best, Yeager was the first to break the Sound barrier, the Belle was first in it's 25th mission, and Bob Hoover is awesome. So there.
Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:25 pm
solution for next, Listen to the guy who restored it, He knows more about it then the museum does.
Restore the planes the way the NASM does, all parts installed.
Restore the planes the way the NASM does, all parts installed.
????
Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:30 pm
Because Mike started with such a battered mess, new longerons had to be painstakingly, fabricated. It was expensive and time consuming. That's why it's so shameful that they were cut.
would it matter much if a different cutting impliment was used on the longerons
Makes me wonder if some you so-called "experts" did any research whatsoever before posting and immediately assuming it was hacked apart with a chainsaw
would it matter much if a different cutting impliment was used on the longerons
Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:09 pm
the reason the CAF SB2C is split in the picture is because when it crashed, it broke the fuselage in 2. Nelson Ezell put it back together.
The Helldiver suffered a engine failure on take off, it landed in a field and after impact, it bounced back in the air, the engine was torn from the airframe and then the airframe came down on top of the engine, shoving the engine into the bomb bay.
The Helldiver suffered a engine failure on take off, it landed in a field and after impact, it bounced back in the air, the engine was torn from the airframe and then the airframe came down on top of the engine, shoving the engine into the bomb bay.
????
Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:31 pm
I'm sure those instructions didn't involve the use of a chainsaw.
Just to clear things up. The above sentence is often referred to has sarcasism
While I'm sure no chainsaw was used in the demolition (oops there I go again) .....
I mean disassembly of the A-25 a cutting tool of some type was
Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:06 pm
Hi Guys,
Well I've held off on making any posts about the A-25 for sometime now and although my anger level is still rather high I would like to stick to the facts, rather than make a statement based on my feelings. I contracted with the Museum to build a static A-25, for a set price, 7 years ago. Acquiring the missing items and fabricating parts from scratch (little things like new longerons), exhausted all of the funds in 3 years. Being a man of my word, I chose to complete the project personally, rather than renegotiate a contract that I had agreed to and felt that I should live up to. I have not received a dime towards the restoration for over four years from the museum, the full brunt of running my shop, keeping the lights on, materials, labor ect., has come from my own pocket, not from the museum. I was very determined to complete the project and deliver it to the museum no matter what the costs were but when the last restoration supervisor retired and the new kid on the block took over, it was a whole new ball game. Nothing was quite up to his standards; he was not around when a very damaged, corroded, burnt and crushed airframe entered my shop, but jumped in the arena when much of the work was all ready complete.
Seven years of my life were donated to returning what many thought as an impossible task of rebuilding the A-25 to displayable standards. 6 to 8 weeks were required to complete the final restoration, when the decision was made by their restoration supervisor to finish the project at Dayton. This meant no final payment to me, four years of hard work chasing that elusive carrot, searching and paying for all the missing parts then the final kick in the pants was that I would not get any credit for all of the work done. That was the final straw. The financial burden of completing the restoration, with no visible means of support was beyond my abilities, I risked losing everything that I owned to continue down a dead end street. I had even worked out a deal with another local restoration shop to finish the A/C for the final amount due to me at the end of the project (6-8 additional weeks on a 7 year project), but that was voted down by that same restoration supervisor.
My decision to come to work for Eric meant that the A-25 would have to go on hold until I could put away enough of my own hard earned money to complete the job this was not good enough for my friend at the museum. They made the choice to come and get it ASAP with no further extension of time or consideration of completing it. I sent the museum copies from the erection manual on how to correctly disassemble and ship the a/c without cutting, drilling or damaging it, but to no avail. A row of new bolts on each side of the fuselage and four very large bolts in the center section were all that was needed to correctly remove it in one piece.
A total disregard for the disassembly and shipping of the only surviving A-25 in the world brings us to where we are today. I went up to MN the week prior to their arrival and prepped everything for the move and removed the aircraft from my hangar. As I was not able to take another week off work to go back to MN and help them with what I thought was a very straight forward and correct way to ship it to Dayton, I put my faith in their ability to ship it safely which now I see was a major mistake. I've made a lot of personal sacrifices to complete what was once a childhood dream to see it displayed at Dayton only to have that dream dashed by a inexperienced person whose ego has gone along way in killing the project and God knows what damage was done in the rush job to get it back to Dayton. It was disassembled in a little over 24 hours from the time they arrived to impress who? Standing it on the firewall was not a smart move the weight of the center section alone would give second thoughts to anyone with the experience of moving something that large and fragile cross country. The high center of gravity it's self would cause one to think of the safety of transporting it that way but it's theirs and they can do as they please with it. I can only hope it gets the care it deserves, gets finished in a professional manner and can be enjoyed by many for years to come. As far as ever doing another Helldiver or any project that complicated, not a chance this experience has taught me a very good lesson leave it for the experts as there seems to be an endless supply of them out there just waiting to get their chance to dazzle the rest of the world. Thanks for everyone’s help and support through out the project what a long and strange trip it's been.
Thanks Mike
Well I've held off on making any posts about the A-25 for sometime now and although my anger level is still rather high I would like to stick to the facts, rather than make a statement based on my feelings. I contracted with the Museum to build a static A-25, for a set price, 7 years ago. Acquiring the missing items and fabricating parts from scratch (little things like new longerons), exhausted all of the funds in 3 years. Being a man of my word, I chose to complete the project personally, rather than renegotiate a contract that I had agreed to and felt that I should live up to. I have not received a dime towards the restoration for over four years from the museum, the full brunt of running my shop, keeping the lights on, materials, labor ect., has come from my own pocket, not from the museum. I was very determined to complete the project and deliver it to the museum no matter what the costs were but when the last restoration supervisor retired and the new kid on the block took over, it was a whole new ball game. Nothing was quite up to his standards; he was not around when a very damaged, corroded, burnt and crushed airframe entered my shop, but jumped in the arena when much of the work was all ready complete.
Seven years of my life were donated to returning what many thought as an impossible task of rebuilding the A-25 to displayable standards. 6 to 8 weeks were required to complete the final restoration, when the decision was made by their restoration supervisor to finish the project at Dayton. This meant no final payment to me, four years of hard work chasing that elusive carrot, searching and paying for all the missing parts then the final kick in the pants was that I would not get any credit for all of the work done. That was the final straw. The financial burden of completing the restoration, with no visible means of support was beyond my abilities, I risked losing everything that I owned to continue down a dead end street. I had even worked out a deal with another local restoration shop to finish the A/C for the final amount due to me at the end of the project (6-8 additional weeks on a 7 year project), but that was voted down by that same restoration supervisor.
My decision to come to work for Eric meant that the A-25 would have to go on hold until I could put away enough of my own hard earned money to complete the job this was not good enough for my friend at the museum. They made the choice to come and get it ASAP with no further extension of time or consideration of completing it. I sent the museum copies from the erection manual on how to correctly disassemble and ship the a/c without cutting, drilling or damaging it, but to no avail. A row of new bolts on each side of the fuselage and four very large bolts in the center section were all that was needed to correctly remove it in one piece.
A total disregard for the disassembly and shipping of the only surviving A-25 in the world brings us to where we are today. I went up to MN the week prior to their arrival and prepped everything for the move and removed the aircraft from my hangar. As I was not able to take another week off work to go back to MN and help them with what I thought was a very straight forward and correct way to ship it to Dayton, I put my faith in their ability to ship it safely which now I see was a major mistake. I've made a lot of personal sacrifices to complete what was once a childhood dream to see it displayed at Dayton only to have that dream dashed by a inexperienced person whose ego has gone along way in killing the project and God knows what damage was done in the rush job to get it back to Dayton. It was disassembled in a little over 24 hours from the time they arrived to impress who? Standing it on the firewall was not a smart move the weight of the center section alone would give second thoughts to anyone with the experience of moving something that large and fragile cross country. The high center of gravity it's self would cause one to think of the safety of transporting it that way but it's theirs and they can do as they please with it. I can only hope it gets the care it deserves, gets finished in a professional manner and can be enjoyed by many for years to come. As far as ever doing another Helldiver or any project that complicated, not a chance this experience has taught me a very good lesson leave it for the experts as there seems to be an endless supply of them out there just waiting to get their chance to dazzle the rest of the world. Thanks for everyone’s help and support through out the project what a long and strange trip it's been.
Thanks Mike
Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:13 pm
"Stupid is as stupid does." - Forrest Gump
???
Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:14 pm
Thank you Mike,
Just remember no matter what is said everyone know's that's "your"
airplane and that you and you alone brought the A-25 back from extinction.
My hat is off to you sir!!!!
Just remember no matter what is said everyone know's that's "your"
airplane and that you and you alone brought the A-25 back from extinction.
My hat is off to you sir!!!!
Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:19 pm
Kalamazookid wrote:
If you will look at the second pic of the CAF Helldiver, you will notice that "the two halves" are connected by a LONGERON. You are sort of correct, it does come apart there, with a chainsaw, cutting torch, hack saw......well, you get the idea.
Bad idea to employ the "Sweeny Todd" method of airframe transport.
So it really does come apart there, huh? Makes me wonder if some you so-called "experts" did any research whatsoever before posting and immediately assuming it was hacked apart with a chainsaw. In the future it would be nice if we could make informed comments instead of assuming the worst, especially if we don't know exactly how the aircraft can be disassembled.
If you will look at the second pic of the CAF Helldiver, you will notice that "the two halves" are connected by a LONGERON. You are sort of correct, it does come apart there, with a chainsaw, cutting torch, hack saw......well, you get the idea.
Bad idea to employ the "Sweeny Todd" method of airframe transport.
Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:25 pm
Mike, if it was not for "your" love, patience, devotion, money, blood, sweat, tears, etc........
This would still probably be a piece of corroded metal lost in the middle of nowhere.
You have done great.
In retrospect, I guess we all learn from the experience we jump in through life. Some are harder & other are sweeter. In then end we all learn.
Next one is yours
)
This would still probably be a piece of corroded metal lost in the middle of nowhere.
You have done great.
In retrospect, I guess we all learn from the experience we jump in through life. Some are harder & other are sweeter. In then end we all learn.
Next one is yours
)
Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:32 pm
Ok, this just begs the next question...
If this is true, shouldn't Mike get paid at least the remaining sum?
Contract completion or not, an Air Force General should have some respect for the work clearly done (all you have to see is the pictures). Especially if some of it has been done in good faith beyond the allotted funds.
Which person(s) in congress should be contacted to investigate?
Ryan
If this is true, shouldn't Mike get paid at least the remaining sum?
Contract completion or not, an Air Force General should have some respect for the work clearly done (all you have to see is the pictures). Especially if some of it has been done in good faith beyond the allotted funds.
Which person(s) in congress should be contacted to investigate?
Ryan