Warbird Information Exchange

We are car shopping and I've seen a lot of hype about hybrids. I rode in a friends Hybrid Camray and he loves it. The battery takes up a big chunk of the truck though and I worry that a few years from now the battery will be the size of a brick in the newer cars (you never know with "new" technology). Also the repair costs if the thing has problems down the road are a concern. Any opinions?

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"Everyone wants to live here (New Jersey), evidenced by the fact that it has the highest population per capita in the U.S..."

The only one I have ever seen on the road was in the rear view of my Hemi powered Charger. Ha Ha

All joking aside, I am not a fan due to the reason you already mentioned.

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Chris Henry
EAA Aviation Museum Manager

Perhaps this is better suited for Snopes.com, but rumor has it (yeah, yeah, I know...rumors ) that the manufacture and disposal of the batteries for these hybrid vehicles leaves a bigger carbon footprint on the planet per vehicle than a Hummer H3. I dunno if that's true or not, but many things that pop up in our attempts at a "green world" seem to me to be just a temporary feel good thing, rather than a real solution. In other words, a hybrid car may indeed save a crapload of gasoline, but is it really doing anything to help "save the planet?"

I dunno. Bill Greenwood? Al Gore? Anyone? Comments? Facts?

Gary

Scott: It's really going to be defined by your typical use. The hybrids shine when you trips are short range, low speed and fairly steadystate speeds. If your runs are in the 20-40 mile per day range and speeds under 50mph, it might be worth waiting another year or so to look at the Chevy Volt, all electric. If you have longer runs, or high speeds, pretty much forget the hybrids for now. The premium on the costs right now due to the mileage panic by consumers makes them way pricey. If you can hold out for a few months more, it might be worth looking hard at the VW Jetta TDI for 2009 model year if you don't mind a diesel. Supposedly really good mpgs with decent space.

I drive a 2001 New Beetle TDI and love it. I crack off between 47.5 and 50 mpg pretty regular on my 100 mile per day commute.

I looked at moving my wife out of the pickup into a used, beater Honda for the better mpgs, but would have to gone to better than 35 mpg to even think about breaking even within 2 years. We may look a the Volt when it comes out.

I just hate to buy something thats an outdated pieces of junk in a few years. The Camray is neat, but the way technology drives forward, I'd hate to get it and regret it five years from now because it has become outdated by advances in Hybrid technology. It would make the car worthless as a trade-in/re-sell...

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"Everyone wants to live here (New Jersey), evidenced by the fact that it has the highest population per capita in the U.S..."

In my opinion, the hybrids are better for the environment than an all electric car. Remember, that electricity comes from somewhere - usually coal-fired power plants. Now, mpg alone may dictate an all electric car, but will you be able to afford the price premium?

Beta vs VHS...DVD-HD vs Blue-Ray

Get in too early & you may end up with a white elephant.

If mpg is your primary concern (and not environment necessarily), small displacement diesel engines are probably your best bet in the short term - proven technology that isn't rapidly changing & still priced w/in reason. The VW TDI-series are very good cars that do very well given what they are.

Disposal of batteries in both hybrid & all-electric cars is a very real concern environmentally. I've seen the email relating the Prius to the Hummer, and while there seems to be a great deal of internet-myth surrounding much of the hype there, the bottom line is the batteries are hazardous material that needs to be disposed of properly.

Remember too that batteries have a finite life, so at some point, they will need to be replaced. I'm quite confident that won't be cheap.

Mid-70s Civics used to knock down 45-50 mpg - '60s mid-sized American cars regularly knocked down low-mid 20mpg figures. We seem to have gone backwards despite the efficiencies of computer-controlled fuel/ignition management because we're demanding performance. You can't have both...

I'm half tempted to build my own car - lightweight is the key. Small displacement, multi-speed manual, computer engine management...


I'm reminded of the early 70s and late 70s oil "crises" - the rush to small cars, the abanondment of luxo-barges, etc. The reality is, in relation to disposable income, gasoline still hasn't reached the peak that it was in the early '80s and nowhere near where it was prior to the mid-60s. In 2007 dollars, gas needs to hit about $4.65 to equal the high in the early '80s. Doesn't make me feel any better about dropping $70 in my tank, but I think we've had it so good for so long we're just plain spoiled.

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Daddy always said, "If yer gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough" and I'm one tough sonofagun!

The problem is that while we've not moved forward in efficiency, we've continued to add on more and more emissions controls, all of which siphon off power and in turn, fuel efficiency. The funniest part is that our biggest advancement in emissions control has also resulted in the worst reduction in fuel efficiency - the catalytic converter. I've heard figures of anywhere from 10% to 25% reduction, but most mechanics I've talked to agree it's more like 10-15% reduction. It's just an inefficient way to clean the exhaust that would be better done through cleaner fuels and better combustion controls. It doesn't help that we continue to degrade the quality of our fuel and allow more and more contamination to the fuel in the form of ethanol and additives that reduce the ability of the fuel to completely burn.

I agree. It's also weight related. With mandatory side airbags, 5mph bumpers, safety hoops, etc., we add weight. Lightweight manufacturing of components only goes so far to offset this.

Another factor is performance. There is a minimum fuel quantity required for a given horsepower - no matter how efficient you are. Granted, a new-tech computer management engine putting out 200hp burns less fuel than an old-tech carb & points engine putting out 200hp in most cases, but there is a practical minimum for that 200hp. As consumers demand more performance, we lose mpg even though engine efficiency is improved...

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Daddy always said, "If yer gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough" and I'm one tough sonofagun!

About a year ago Consumer Reports had an article on hybrids and found that none of them were cost effective. Their higher cost offset the fuel savings over a typical 5-year ownership cycle. Not sure if that has changed with the higher gas prices, but I've seen articles recommending that you don't trade in your gas hog SUV for a hybrid because you won't get squat for your used SUV.

Botom line I think is to break out the calculator and see what works for you, unless you just want to feel good about "doing something" for the environment regardless of the expense.

I generally keep my vehicles for 9-10 years, so I really wonder how the batteries in a hybrid would hold up after that long. Do they even make hybrid pick-em-up trucks? What kind of towing capacity?

You are right on track with that Gary. The manufacturing process to make the batteries alone makes a bigger impact than a regular car does. Another huge problem down the ropad will be disposal of used, crashed, and otherwise junk battery banks out of these cars.

As others have pointed out, if you're really concerned about fuel efficiency, get a diesel. Diesels are much cleaner these days and have better fuel efficiency than a gas powered car.

Or if you want a quick fix, make sure your tires are properly inflated, ease when accelerating and braking, drive a little slower, etc.

No to diesels. I'd rather hear a T-28 than smell a diesel, regardless of all the baloney about how clean they are..

I just rode in a new Prius taxicab last night. Seemed like a fine little machine, but I bet it cost a bunch for a private owner.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

Bill,

The diesels just weren't burning the right stuff! I've got a friend running vegetable oil in his diesel - totally renewable resource, and it smells like a french-fry factory. Personally, if I had the money, that's probably the direction I'd go. I also have another friend who's father-in-law runs diesel-electric trains - which are pretty efficient. He keeps wondering why they don't build a diesel-electric car. They're very efficient, but the biggest hurdle is acceleration.

Ryan

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Aerial Photographer with Red Wing Aerial Photography currently based at KRBD and tailwheel CFI.
Websites: Texas Tailwheel Flight Training, DoolittleRaid.com and Lbirds.com.

The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but safety is of the LORD. - Prov. 21:31 - Train, Practice, Trust.

I'll bet they could get good acceleration is something as light as a car. The application I see for that is in pickups, up to large semi trucks. Having small electric cars is great for some but completely useless for me. I have to have a pickup that can pull at the very least a 12' enclosed trailer.

Hey Scott: Just heard some stuff on the new 2009 Jetta TDI...supposed to be in some of the dealer showrooms within 6 weeks. EPA ratings are 60 on the highway...From my experience, the ratings on the TDI Bug were pretty conservative. MSRP is also pretty reasonable...somewhere around 25K for the base TDI. Don't know what tranny or what options are available yet. Might be worth banging on your local dealer to find out.