P-51D "Willit Run?" 353rd FG

[k5083]

I guess he also is not famous enough. (It's a Kittyhawk by the way, not a P-40.) It does go to show that the pilots of some other Cat III warbirds in the NASM are known.

P.S. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the NASM Kittyhawk was not painted as Lopez's aircraft until "Lope's Hope" was added to the cowling very recently, yes? 2003 was it? So the Kitty followed NASM policy until they made an exception due to Lopez's service to the museum.

August

[Jerry O'Neill]

Actually, the P-40 was painted in Lopez' basic color scheme when it was first restored in the early to mid 1970's. There was an article in Airpower/Wings stating such. The only thing NOT applied at that time was the name "Lope's Hope". I'm not sure why, but they did add the name later.
Jerry

[mustangdriver]

That might be the case, but I think it is important for a museum to honor the peple that work hard for them with something like that. If the case is an aircraft with not a ton of history, then go ahead and pant it in markings to honro a vet or person that spends time with the museum. The NMUSAF did this with the Beaufighter in our collection. IT is painted in the markings of the one flown by one of our volunteers. He was not told about it, and was surprised upon the roll out.

[k5083]

Jerry, thanks for that info. without the Lope's Hope name, the oaint scheme was about as generic as possible, without even a serial, and I imagine that was why they left it off.

MD, i take your point, but I personally agree with the NASM's policy to make the airplanes anonymous/representative. Honoring the vets is part of a military museum's mission, but the NASM should have different priorities. Honoring people who work for the museum opens up a lot of politics and should be avoided. The only reason I favor adding the name is because it makes the plane more accurate. A fighter with no individualized markings doesn't convey the right impression of what these planes generally looked like.

August

[Jack Cook]

99.99% of the 23rd and 51st FG P-40 had the serial number over painted and most sqd's carried their sqd ID number on the verticle stab

[k5083]

99.99% of the 23rd and 51st FG P-40 had the serial number over painted and most sqd's carried their sqd ID number on the verticle stab

I know that (although you exaggerate, since "99.99%" can only be literally true if those two FGs had at least 10,000 P-40s ) and that certainly makes it easier to select a paint scheme that is generic. My point, if I had one, is that many of those machines carried individualized names like "Lope's Hope." Omitting it turns an individualized machine into an anonymous one, which is consistent with the museum's mission but inconsistent with strict accuracy. The P-51 provides a better example of what I am talking about. Imagine that the museum was so concerned with not singling out one individual that it painted the yellow and black group markings and serial on the airplane, but left off the unit and individual letter codes as well as all name/nose art. That would avoid the problem that has now emerged, where research both identifies the individual involved and shows the scheme to be inaccurate, but the P-51 with no codes and name would look nothing like a real 8th AF P-51! So whether you can do a truly representative airplane without incidentally singling out an individual depends on the aircraft allocation and marking practices that prevailed in the combat theatre in which you have decided to mark the airplane. This is just a taste of the process that the museum goes through in picking its Cat III aircraft paint schemes, which also includes goals of representing different camo/marking schemes on the various airplanes and distributing them among different combat theatres. Perhaps it all seems needlessly complex compared to a simpler rule like "Just pick a hero and honor him," but the NASM takes seriously its mission to make the collection as a whole reflect the big picture of WWII aviation.

August

[Ken]

Was looking at the NASM website:

http://www.nasm.si.edu/collections/arti ... 9600300000

They say the airplane only served 11 months and then was set aside for a museum. Could this tail compete for "most accurate Mustang", not based on paint job, but on configuration and systems? Have any of you Mustang gurus ever been behind the ropes to know the answer?

And, while we're on topic, this airplane has been sitting in this gallery for nearly 35 years. Does anyone know if it has gotten any repaint or attention beyond periodic cleaning? I'm guessing it's somewhat climate controlled and out of the reach of visitors. How is she holding up?

Ken

[JohnB]

I hate the name!!!
Perhaps you and I know know about the quality and combat record of the P-51, but since the NASM is (or was) the most visited museum in the world, I'd guess a lot of people who view the Mustang, don't know what we know.

To me, the nickname suggests merchanical unreliability and mistrust. Most WWII aircrew felt neither of those things towrads the planes they flew in combat.

A poor name giving an incorrect perception of the war.
It is just another in my list of complaints and opinions about the NASM.
Details upon request.

[JohnTerrell]

It is a very original/complete P-51D-30-NA, still very much as it was when it rolled off the assembly line in 1945, too late to see action. When you delve into the details (the intricate and not so intricate differences between say a P-51D-10-NA, to a P-51D-15-NA, P-51D-20-NA, or P-51D-25-NA, etc.), it isn't of the exact D-model types that you would have seen in Europe during WWII, although a few P-51D-30-NA's did make it to the Pacific very, very late in the war. Just one such detail that sets apart a P-51D-30-NA, from earlier makes, is that the battery was moved to the engine-bay, from where it had been positioned behind the pilot's armor plate on previous models (those out-fitted with the 'uncle-dog'/VLR antenna setup, also had the battery moved in such a way) - so the Mustangs that you would have seen in Europe during WWII, and most of the examples you would have ever seen in the Pacific/CBI, had the battery behind the pilot (the easiest way to notice if the battery was re-positioned, is by a little battery vent-scoop that is mounted on the port-side of the nose, on the wing-fuselage elbow fairing).

I'm not sure if the cockpit has ever been touched-up, but to me it looks very original, if even un-touched. If the floor boards are still original/un-touched, it shows just how low-time the aircraft was when it entered museum possesion (only 211 hours, reportedly). I also seem to recall that the NASM is very mindful to preserve than restore, if at all possible.

[iflyinanh]

Was looking at the NASM website:

http://www.nasm.si.edu/collections/arti ... 9600300000

They say the airplane only served 11 months and then was set aside for a museum. Could this tail compete for "most accurate Mustang", not based on paint job, but on configuration and systems? Have any of you Mustang gurus ever been behind the ropes to know the answer?

And, while we're on topic, this airplane has been sitting in this gallery for nearly 35 years. Does anyone know if it has gotten any repaint or attention beyond periodic cleaning? I'm guessing it's somewhat climate controlled and out of the reach of visitors. How is she holding up?

Ken

What color are the gear doors?

[lmritger]

Let me add my .02 about the plane sitting just to the right of "Willit Run" in the WWII Gallery, their Bf 109G-6. At the time the Silver Hill team restored it, the true identity of that aircraft was indeed a mystery- they knew it was a captured G-6 brought over for testing, but didn't know which one as all the normal dataplates had been souvenired off of it. So, they picked a representative scheme from a photo, selecting an aircraft whose configuration matched that of the 109 in the collection (G-6, short antenna mast, D/F loop fitted, FuG 25 fitted)... they selected "white 2" of 7./JG 27.

Well, it turns out someone DID eventually track down the identity of that aircraft, and it's actually a rather famous bird... it's WNr 160756, formerly "yellow 4" of 3./JG 4, piloted by French defector Uffz. Rene Darbois who flew the aircraft to a British field in Italy on 25 July 1944. I had the good fortune to get full run of the aircraft back in early 2006 courtesy my friend the late Tom Dietz, who was the curator of the German aircraft collection at the time, and I was rather dismayed to see that the paint was peeling off in sheets from the uppersurface of the starboard stabilizer, and other wear was clearly evident elsewhere. I spoke with him about repainting it in Darbois' markings (no small undertaking, as I./JG 4 used a lot of locally mixed and Italian paints to camouflage their aircraft to match the arid Italian landscape), and his response was that he'd be all for it but they were having enough issues with funding trying to keep the lights on, let alone repainting aircraft which were already on site.

I don't know who succeeded Tom after his untimely passing, so I don't know how familiar they are with the history of this bird or if they'd be willing to revisit the scheme, but there was at least one guy in a position of responsibility in the NASM who was willing to put that aircraft back in it's original markings. And frankly, I think that's probably true of most of NASM management at this point, given how hard they worked to put their Fw 190 back into it's service markings, as well as the Gekko, Seiran and so forth, but I can't say that with absolute certainty.

All I know is, if they DO repaint the Mustang and they don't want to put it into the markings it originally wore, I want to see it in a 359th scheme.

Lynn

[Ken]

Thanks guys, particularly for the cockpit photo. I get the $ issue, don't we all wish we had unlimited budgets? It sounds as if the P-51 would be better suited to wearing a late Pacific scheme, but I won't sweat that detail. I'm pleased to know the airplane may be a time capsule of sorts. Restoration is one thing, but if the original can be preserved, then I'm all for that.

As far as the name goes, I get that also. Maybe there were better choices for NASM, but given the 20 year olds who named these birds, the name doesn't bother me; I wouldn't look that deep. I'm just glad NMUSAF still displays the Strawberry B1tch. If that airplane were to come back from today's war, they'd either pick another airframe or change the name. History is what it is - isn't that the point?

Ken

[Sabremech]

I'm kind of partial to the 353rd Mustangs.




David
WHF Maint

[steve dickey]

Where's the drool emoticon
Dave got a ride yet
Looks sweet

[Rick65]

If the case is an aircraft with not a ton of history, then go ahead and pant it in markings to honro a vet or person that spends time with the museum. The NMUSAF did this with the Beaufighter in our collection.

Wasn't the beaufighter a RAAF combat veteran so maybe not the best example to quote.