Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:54 pm
Django,
I'm totally eaten up by the B-29 Training Program. Having grown up not all that far from several of the Nebraska bases and the Martin Omaha plant I used to explore the remains of those stations a lot. I am compiling information as I get time, and someday I hope to compile a book that details all the various training programs, from mechanic to gunner to airplane commander and everything in between.
I didn't choose "Second Air Force" as my WIX name for nothin'!
Scott
I'm totally eaten up by the B-29 Training Program. Having grown up not all that far from several of the Nebraska bases and the Martin Omaha plant I used to explore the remains of those stations a lot. I am compiling information as I get time, and someday I hope to compile a book that details all the various training programs, from mechanic to gunner to airplane commander and everything in between.
I didn't choose "Second Air Force" as my WIX name for nothin'!
Scott
Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:19 am
More APG-15 tail gun stuff:
This is the radar scope (and a close-up of the data plate) for the Radar Controlled Turret for the B-29B.
In addition, the tail gunner would monitor the AN-APX-15 as a form of "friend or foe" receiver. Read the description in the second photo to see how clever the radar scientists had become! I've read combat reports from 315th Wing tail gunners who refer to the radar starting to track an airplane but stopping--I assume that it recognized another B-29 and ceased tracking.
More later,
Scott
This is the radar scope (and a close-up of the data plate) for the Radar Controlled Turret for the B-29B.
In addition, the tail gunner would monitor the AN-APX-15 as a form of "friend or foe" receiver. Read the description in the second photo to see how clever the radar scientists had become! I've read combat reports from 315th Wing tail gunners who refer to the radar starting to track an airplane but stopping--I assume that it recognized another B-29 and ceased tracking.
More later,
Scott
Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:30 pm
Wow I thought I was one of the only nuts out there to be interested in the APG-15. Great stuff Scott, or should I say Great Scott!
I would love to put together a complete APG-15 set. I have the antenna, scope and a couple of control boxes. I found one on eBay that ties the APG-15 into the CFC system for tracking and control of the turrets. It was amazing to see just what they were turning out back then.
Video guided bombs made famous during the Gulf War were being put in service in WWII. One of my favorite topics has been the development of technology through WWII. I like to show people this at our little museum. We have a flexible ANM2 30 cal sitting next to our B-29 CFC turret system. The 30 flex gun was basically what we had going into WWII and we ended up with a remote system that had a computer to compensate for lead, ballistics, true air speed, altitude and even the acceleration of the attacking aircraft.
Then throw in the radar guided turrets, radar proximity fuses and as Scott mentioned; a radar that could recognize a B-29 or a B-32 (R3350 with 4 bladed prop) to tell you that it was friendly.
How about the bombing computers tied into radar so they could do offset bombing. They also had a radio bomb release system in the lead ship to drop the bombs automatically from the other aircraft in the formation.
Cool stuff indeed.
Here is our gunnery trainer set up. It uses a ring sight and an upper forward turret.
I am glad that you mentioned the turret project for Fifi Gary. I was hoping to make a solid state replacement for the Amplidyne motor generators but so far I have a quote of $6000 just to make the first one. Needless to say I am hoping to find a better option. I still have to hear back from one other electrical guy before I pull the plug on the solid state idea.
Would it be possible to get two Amplidyne from the CFC trainer? I can’t recall; were there two Amplidyne on the turret on the other side of the hangar? The Amplidyne problem is the biggest hurdle that I have to make this work for Fifi. If I can get a working pair from you, or anyone who might have access to some, then I can move forward. Even though they look identical the Amplidynes for the B-29 turret system are different from the ones used in the Martin and other turrets. I do not have the part numbers in front of me, as I am out of town right now, but they end with something like DMJ18A. If the numbers end with DMJ9A then they will not work. When I get home I can verify this.
If any of you on WIX have any motor generators, dynamotors or boat anchors that look like items 2,3,4,5,11 in the photo below please let me know. I need these desperately to get Fifi’s lower forward turret up and running so she can demonstrate the system to the public.
Here is a shot of a B-29 gunnery trainer. I don’t know much about it though. Scott maybe you can ID it.
Scott, it sounds like you and I have a lot of common interests. Maybe you should see a doctor too!
I would love to put together a complete APG-15 set. I have the antenna, scope and a couple of control boxes. I found one on eBay that ties the APG-15 into the CFC system for tracking and control of the turrets. It was amazing to see just what they were turning out back then.
Video guided bombs made famous during the Gulf War were being put in service in WWII. One of my favorite topics has been the development of technology through WWII. I like to show people this at our little museum. We have a flexible ANM2 30 cal sitting next to our B-29 CFC turret system. The 30 flex gun was basically what we had going into WWII and we ended up with a remote system that had a computer to compensate for lead, ballistics, true air speed, altitude and even the acceleration of the attacking aircraft.
Then throw in the radar guided turrets, radar proximity fuses and as Scott mentioned; a radar that could recognize a B-29 or a B-32 (R3350 with 4 bladed prop) to tell you that it was friendly.
How about the bombing computers tied into radar so they could do offset bombing. They also had a radio bomb release system in the lead ship to drop the bombs automatically from the other aircraft in the formation.
Cool stuff indeed.
Here is our gunnery trainer set up. It uses a ring sight and an upper forward turret.
I am glad that you mentioned the turret project for Fifi Gary. I was hoping to make a solid state replacement for the Amplidyne motor generators but so far I have a quote of $6000 just to make the first one. Needless to say I am hoping to find a better option. I still have to hear back from one other electrical guy before I pull the plug on the solid state idea.
Would it be possible to get two Amplidyne from the CFC trainer? I can’t recall; were there two Amplidyne on the turret on the other side of the hangar? The Amplidyne problem is the biggest hurdle that I have to make this work for Fifi. If I can get a working pair from you, or anyone who might have access to some, then I can move forward. Even though they look identical the Amplidynes for the B-29 turret system are different from the ones used in the Martin and other turrets. I do not have the part numbers in front of me, as I am out of town right now, but they end with something like DMJ18A. If the numbers end with DMJ9A then they will not work. When I get home I can verify this.
If any of you on WIX have any motor generators, dynamotors or boat anchors that look like items 2,3,4,5,11 in the photo below please let me know. I need these desperately to get Fifi’s lower forward turret up and running so she can demonstrate the system to the public.
Here is a shot of a B-29 gunnery trainer. I don’t know much about it though. Scott maybe you can ID it.
Scott, it sounds like you and I have a lot of common interests. Maybe you should see a doctor too!
Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:50 pm
Taigh Ramey wrote:Great stuff Scott, or should I say Great Scott!
Oh brother!
Don't encourage him, Taigh!!! 
I will need to get Scott down here to look at that CFC trainer to see if it's got the doomaflotchies that you are looking for. I look at those things like a dog watching TV. I don't have a clue what's going on there.
Gary
Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:00 pm
Hey Gary,
I remember looking at a CFC trainer at the CAF squadron that had Yellow Rose. Is this the same trainer that you all are talking about? If so I am pretty sure that it has the Amplidynes we need.
Gary wrote
Is Scott one of those Warbird geeky nerds type of guys...like I am?
I remember looking at a CFC trainer at the CAF squadron that had Yellow Rose. Is this the same trainer that you all are talking about? If so I am pretty sure that it has the Amplidynes we need.
Gary wrote
Oh brother!
Is Scott one of those Warbird geeky nerds type of guys...like I am?
Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:07 pm
Taigh Ramey wrote:Hey Gary,
I remember looking at a CFC trainer at the CAF squadron that had Yellow Rose. Is this the same trainer that you all are talking about? If so I am pretty sure that it has the Amplidynes we need.
That's not the one I was talking about. There is one here, but I don't know if it's got what you want. I'm not sure if the Yellow Rose bunch will let go of anything from their trainer, but I'll ask.
Taigh Ramey wrote:Is Scott one of those Warbird geeky nerds type of guys...like I am?
Yeah, but I can tolerate you.
Okay, okay...only kidding. I can't tolerate either of you.
Gary
Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:58 pm
Taigh,
Is there someone here besides us? I thought I heard some noise, but it could be my poor hearing due to my advancing age.
That elaborate crew trainer you posted was built at Clovis, I believe. I have a Smoky Hill AAF newspaper that shows that view as well, and it actually calls out the Base Unit that constructed it. When I get to my "library" I'll dig out the stuff on that one. I'll go ahead and post a couple more photos of similar, but better, trainers tonight.
I wish we could go up to Kee Bird and get the Amplidynes from her, I'm sure a few survived the fire. I'll ask around to see if there are any lying about. I have never had time to look at the trainer at Midland, heck, I've never been inside the museum yet!
Remind me to get out my Nosmeagle stuff if I forget!
Later,
Scott the Intolerable.
Is there someone here besides us? I thought I heard some noise, but it could be my poor hearing due to my advancing age.
That elaborate crew trainer you posted was built at Clovis, I believe. I have a Smoky Hill AAF newspaper that shows that view as well, and it actually calls out the Base Unit that constructed it. When I get to my "library" I'll dig out the stuff on that one. I'll go ahead and post a couple more photos of similar, but better, trainers tonight.
I wish we could go up to Kee Bird and get the Amplidynes from her, I'm sure a few survived the fire. I'll ask around to see if there are any lying about. I have never had time to look at the trainer at Midland, heck, I've never been inside the museum yet!
Remind me to get out my Nosmeagle stuff if I forget!
Later,
Scott the Intolerable.
Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:13 pm
Whining removed. Sorry about that.
Last edited by Taigh Ramey on Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:34 pm
Taigh,
Sorry to hear you're under the weather, everyone stateside seems to have something as well. In my case it's a bit of the flu.
As to whether Gary was kidding, I know he wasn't in my case!
Get well soon,
Scott the Intolerable
Sorry to hear you're under the weather, everyone stateside seems to have something as well. In my case it's a bit of the flu.
As to whether Gary was kidding, I know he wasn't in my case!
Get well soon,
Scott the Intolerable
Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:42 pm
I appreciate the well wishes Scott. I also appreciate your posts. It is nice to come across someone with similar eclectic (read psychotic) interests.
We need to get a life!
We need to get a life!
Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:52 am
Yeah, I was kidding...even with Scott.
Gary
Gary
Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:08 pm
Before I post the next series of photos, a small description of the Central Fire Control (CFC) or Remote Control Turret (RCT) system as used on the B-29 is in order. A great description and excerpts of the manuals can be found here: http://www.twinbeech.com/CFCsystem.htm. Thanks for compling all this information, Taigh, and yes, there are some of us out here that think like you do! (Oh, I think we DO have a life, it's just a little on the eccentric side!)
In a nutshell, the tail gunner was independent of the rest of the gun system and was isolated in his little pressurized compartment. The nose gunner, top gunner, and both side blister gunners could take control of the other four turrets by use of the computers that ran the whole system. Priority could be changed from gunner to gunner depending on where an attack was coming from. The top gunner was a kind of "master of ceremonies" and was known as the "RCT" gunner according to my Second Air Force Standard Procedures Manual, the left blister was gunner "E", and the right gunner was "M". In order for the CFC system to work efficiently, coordination between the four men working the gunsights was absolutely essential. The various B-29 training fields devised different training systems using a variation of the Waller Trainer, which used movie footage to simulate airplanes attacking the "airplane". Harvard AAF eventually constructed a procedures trainer in the Gunnery School building that had small compartments for each gunner, a working intercom system and enough of the RCT system to allow for a fair representation of a B-29. This system was still not good enough, and the outdoor mock-ups began to sprout.
Here is the pair that Taigh posted earlier, that I think was at Clovis.
Fairmont AAF wasn't quite as efficient, as this was their first effort, and it only trained one crew at a time. However, it actually had turrets mounted on it, whereas the first picture shows only camera scoring ports. If you study this picture a little, you'll see the putt-putt that powered the electrical system.
McCook AAF had some ingenious folks in the Gunnery School. 2AF had wisely decided to let the personnel at the training centers design a system that got results, and, after a time, enough fire control equipment and spare turrets, sights, and cracked blisters were available to get creative. Here is the McCook Outdoor CFC Mock-Up in September of 1944:
This trailer was towed to an unused runway or taxiway and pursuit curves were flown by L-5 or other aircraft on the trainer. Two crews could train in this device, which had two complete RCT systems and two independent fully functional intercoms. The instructors would introduce malfunctions into the system during "combat" and the crewmen would attempt to repair them during the fight. By using the mock-up the gunners could learn how to cooperate with their shipmates and each man's idiocyncracies. The gunsights were equipped with standard gun cameras and the film was developed for grading and debriefing, usually on the day following the training session.
Harvard eventually built their own Outdoor Mock-Up from a 2AF basic plan. This image was taken at the Harvard Army Air Field open house in the summer of '45:
This trainer used a bit different design to achieve the same results as the McCook trailer, but was constructed much later. How about that sporty P-63 in the foreground!
It's a gunnery training airplane that probably "attacked" that very trainer. More on the Kingcobras later.
To illustrate the ever-changing plans with the B-29 program, McCook used their trailer mock-up to assist in Second and Third Phase Training for the 9th Bombardment Group (VH). The next unit assigned to McCook was the 331st, equipping with the turretless B-29B. Since there was no need for the CFC trainer anymore, McCook's Base Unit was ordered to ship the mock-up to Colorado Springs, and to send all turret training aids from the Gunnery School to other B-29 stations that needed them. This also happened at Harvard, Grand Island, and Fairmont. Well---after training the 315th Wing Groups, the AAF decided that the next combat units to train at the Nebraska fields would once again employ the full CFC system! The four Gunnery Schools were instructed to set up proper RCT training aids in preparation for their next Group. McCook immediately requested that 2AF H.Q. send back their cool gunnery trailer, but the request was turned down. It was during this confusion that Harvard constructed the trailer in the photo above.
As an aside, the next four groups scheduled for these bases were intended for the 8th Air Force then setting up shop on Okinawa under General Doolittle. The 316th Wing would have gone to battle with fully armed Superforts equipped with AN/APQ-7 bombing radar and the APG-15 gun laying turret, but the end of hostilities meant that the program never reached full speed. Consolidation of units and closing of airfields saw most of this newly acquired training equipment unused or shipped to the few training fields still in use.
Scott
(Oh, I think we DO have a life, it's just a little on the eccentric side!)
In a nutshell, the tail gunner was independent of the rest of the gun system and was isolated in his little pressurized compartment. The nose gunner, top gunner, and both side blister gunners could take control of the other four turrets by use of the computers that ran the whole system. Priority could be changed from gunner to gunner depending on where an attack was coming from. The top gunner was a kind of "master of ceremonies" and was known as the "RCT" gunner according to my Second Air Force Standard Procedures Manual, the left blister was gunner "E", and the right gunner was "M". In order for the CFC system to work efficiently, coordination between the four men working the gunsights was absolutely essential. The various B-29 training fields devised different training systems using a variation of the Waller Trainer, which used movie footage to simulate airplanes attacking the "airplane". Harvard AAF eventually constructed a procedures trainer in the Gunnery School building that had small compartments for each gunner, a working intercom system and enough of the RCT system to allow for a fair representation of a B-29. This system was still not good enough, and the outdoor mock-ups began to sprout.
Here is the pair that Taigh posted earlier, that I think was at Clovis.
Fairmont AAF wasn't quite as efficient, as this was their first effort, and it only trained one crew at a time. However, it actually had turrets mounted on it, whereas the first picture shows only camera scoring ports. If you study this picture a little, you'll see the putt-putt that powered the electrical system.
McCook AAF had some ingenious folks in the Gunnery School. 2AF had wisely decided to let the personnel at the training centers design a system that got results, and, after a time, enough fire control equipment and spare turrets, sights, and cracked blisters were available to get creative. Here is the McCook Outdoor CFC Mock-Up in September of 1944:
This trailer was towed to an unused runway or taxiway and pursuit curves were flown by L-5 or other aircraft on the trainer. Two crews could train in this device, which had two complete RCT systems and two independent fully functional intercoms. The instructors would introduce malfunctions into the system during "combat" and the crewmen would attempt to repair them during the fight. By using the mock-up the gunners could learn how to cooperate with their shipmates and each man's idiocyncracies. The gunsights were equipped with standard gun cameras and the film was developed for grading and debriefing, usually on the day following the training session.
Harvard eventually built their own Outdoor Mock-Up from a 2AF basic plan. This image was taken at the Harvard Army Air Field open house in the summer of '45:
This trainer used a bit different design to achieve the same results as the McCook trailer, but was constructed much later. How about that sporty P-63 in the foreground!
It's a gunnery training airplane that probably "attacked" that very trainer. More on the Kingcobras later.
To illustrate the ever-changing plans with the B-29 program, McCook used their trailer mock-up to assist in Second and Third Phase Training for the 9th Bombardment Group (VH). The next unit assigned to McCook was the 331st, equipping with the turretless B-29B. Since there was no need for the CFC trainer anymore, McCook's Base Unit was ordered to ship the mock-up to Colorado Springs, and to send all turret training aids from the Gunnery School to other B-29 stations that needed them. This also happened at Harvard, Grand Island, and Fairmont. Well---after training the 315th Wing Groups, the AAF decided that the next combat units to train at the Nebraska fields would once again employ the full CFC system! The four Gunnery Schools were instructed to set up proper RCT training aids in preparation for their next Group. McCook immediately requested that 2AF H.Q. send back their cool gunnery trailer, but the request was turned down. It was during this confusion that Harvard constructed the trailer in the photo above.
As an aside, the next four groups scheduled for these bases were intended for the 8th Air Force then setting up shop on Okinawa under General Doolittle. The 316th Wing would have gone to battle with fully armed Superforts equipped with AN/APQ-7 bombing radar and the APG-15 gun laying turret, but the end of hostilities meant that the program never reached full speed. Consolidation of units and closing of airfields saw most of this newly acquired training equipment unused or shipped to the few training fields still in use.
Scott
Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:27 pm
More awesome stuff Scott. Any chance you might consider putting some of your information on the CFC/RCT page on twinbeech.com? I have been meaning to update that page since I started it a while ago but I just haven't had time. I think your wonderful photos and history would be a real asset.
Please keep it coming!
Please keep it coming!
Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:30 pm
Scott,
Do you have any numbers on how many APG-15 equipped aircraft made it to the theatre?
How about the same for APQ-7 equipment?
Taigh
Do you have any numbers on how many APG-15 equipped aircraft made it to the theatre?
How about the same for APQ-7 equipment?
Taigh
Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:57 pm
Taigh,
I don't have the exact numbers in front of me, but the entire 315th BW saw combat during the last couple of months of the war. For a pretty complete listing of combat airplanes, go to Larry Miller's excellent 315bw.org and click on the aircraft serial number page. All four Groups in the 315th had B-29Bs. I have been led to believe that a couple of their training airplanes were converted to the "B" standard in Nebraska and saw service from Guam as well, but I haven't confirmed this as yet. In addition, the 467th and possibly the 448th Bomb Groups were to have deployed to Okinawa with APG-15 and APQ-7 radars and full turret armament, but, again, I can't confirm if any airplanes got out there. (This deployment was post-cease fire in any event.)
An interesting aside to the whole stripped B-29B program is that many of the 311 airplanes built in that configuration ended up as tankers and other utility configurations post-war. Tinker stored LOTS of "B" models, and more than a few of them were 315th Wing birds. It was easy to convert an already light-weight airplane to non-combat roles, since no turrets had to be removed. The same could be said for the Silverplate airplanes of the 509th--a few of them were converted to other configurations as well.
I don't have the exact numbers in front of me, but the entire 315th BW saw combat during the last couple of months of the war. For a pretty complete listing of combat airplanes, go to Larry Miller's excellent 315bw.org and click on the aircraft serial number page. All four Groups in the 315th had B-29Bs. I have been led to believe that a couple of their training airplanes were converted to the "B" standard in Nebraska and saw service from Guam as well, but I haven't confirmed this as yet. In addition, the 467th and possibly the 448th Bomb Groups were to have deployed to Okinawa with APG-15 and APQ-7 radars and full turret armament, but, again, I can't confirm if any airplanes got out there. (This deployment was post-cease fire in any event.)
An interesting aside to the whole stripped B-29B program is that many of the 311 airplanes built in that configuration ended up as tankers and other utility configurations post-war. Tinker stored LOTS of "B" models, and more than a few of them were 315th Wing birds. It was easy to convert an already light-weight airplane to non-combat roles, since no turrets had to be removed. The same could be said for the Silverplate airplanes of the 509th--a few of them were converted to other configurations as well.