Aircraft Recovery
Sun Jan 09, 2005 7:59 pm
Our Morotai discussion looks like it pretty well concluded that it is likely that there are aircraft in the Morotai, Borneo, and Halmahera regions. The next question I have is once permission is secured how is a recovery operation carried out in a possibly unfriendly area of the world. It will be interesting to hear what you all have to say.
Sun Jan 09, 2005 8:47 pm
How so? All that U.S. customs requires is a bill of sale.
Sun Jan 09, 2005 9:09 pm
Hi Chris
I think you will find - as I have just discovered at a considerable cost! - that recovery is not a good prospect in Asia / Indian ocean etc at present as after the disaster nothing much can be done for around six months either in recovery or shipping terms. It is of course just temporary but it has had a terrible impact on the region and I think they have enough problems without us to worry about for a little while.
Kindest regards
John P
I think you will find - as I have just discovered at a considerable cost! - that recovery is not a good prospect in Asia / Indian ocean etc at present as after the disaster nothing much can be done for around six months either in recovery or shipping terms. It is of course just temporary but it has had a terrible impact on the region and I think they have enough problems without us to worry about for a little while.
Kindest regards
John P
Sun Jan 09, 2005 9:12 pm
Hi Setter:
Yes, agreed, but as far as the mission itself is concerned, how would you carry it out?
Chris
Yes, agreed, but as far as the mission itself is concerned, how would you carry it out?
Chris
Sun Jan 09, 2005 9:22 pm
I wrote:
What I mean is in that general area of Borneo, Morotai, and Halmahera where will you rent a boat or lease a helo? Let alone keep the head hunters at bay? I presume I'd have to take the thing 1000 miles to Australia or Fiji just to get it back to the states.
Yes, agreed, but as far as the mission itself is concerned, how would you carry it out?
Chris
What I mean is in that general area of Borneo, Morotai, and Halmahera where will you rent a boat or lease a helo? Let alone keep the head hunters at bay? I presume I'd have to take the thing 1000 miles to Australia or Fiji just to get it back to the states.
Sun Jan 09, 2005 9:53 pm
Guys,
Recoveries from remote locations is difficult, the logistics behind any recovery can be horrendous.
For places such as Indonesia, once you have located your item and negotiated with the various authorities and land owners, and moved it to the shore, the next major hurdle is moving from point A to your preferrred destination.
A landing craft is the ideal type of vessel when working in remote islands, depending on size, they cost between US$2000 to US$5000 per day plus fuel but include crew. There are a considerable number of these vessels in the South Asia area so finding one should not be a problem.
Obtaining customs clearance to export may require you to transport your find to the nearest main export port to complete formalities. In Indonesia that may mean sailing to either Jakarta or Surabaya in that case you would need to budget for anything up to 10 to 14 days hire of the landing craft, plus fuel, say in the region of US$75,000.00, maybe more as you should also budget for weather delays etc.
I would aslo suggest you discuss your idea with an experienced Project Shipping and Forwarding Company, they will be able to put the whole logistics package together for you and provide you with a budget in advance, usually free of charge, but if your successfull they probably will want to use your recovery as advertising for their company.
There you go guys, not impossible, but if you don't get things right at the begining it can and problably wil, cause you much grief and empty pockets.
Stuart
Recoveries from remote locations is difficult, the logistics behind any recovery can be horrendous.
For places such as Indonesia, once you have located your item and negotiated with the various authorities and land owners, and moved it to the shore, the next major hurdle is moving from point A to your preferrred destination.
A landing craft is the ideal type of vessel when working in remote islands, depending on size, they cost between US$2000 to US$5000 per day plus fuel but include crew. There are a considerable number of these vessels in the South Asia area so finding one should not be a problem.
Obtaining customs clearance to export may require you to transport your find to the nearest main export port to complete formalities. In Indonesia that may mean sailing to either Jakarta or Surabaya in that case you would need to budget for anything up to 10 to 14 days hire of the landing craft, plus fuel, say in the region of US$75,000.00, maybe more as you should also budget for weather delays etc.
I would aslo suggest you discuss your idea with an experienced Project Shipping and Forwarding Company, they will be able to put the whole logistics package together for you and provide you with a budget in advance, usually free of charge, but if your successfull they probably will want to use your recovery as advertising for their company.
There you go guys, not impossible, but if you don't get things right at the begining it can and problably wil, cause you much grief and empty pockets.
Stuart
Sun Jan 09, 2005 10:45 pm
I think the information Stuart posted is excellent. The cost of retrieval appears to be what kept both YAF and the Michigan Historical Museum from buying Morotai B-24s in 1986, from what I've read.
Sun Jan 09, 2005 11:24 pm
Guys,
The cost I put in to start with was only collecting from the found location and delivery to an export port, on top of this you have the cost of loading and lashing to a container(s), trucking, terminal charges, customs fees, seafreight, etc, etc, etc, in the end it could cost anywhere up to US$100,000 to US$150,000.00, maybe more if you have to provide "presents", and this only for a single airframe.
As has been stated before research is the main part of anything of this kind, by all means go and look, but also look very very carefully at the infrastructure of the area you are in this is of vital importance, no point in thinking of a recovery if there is no way to move anything of any weight to the shore.
Anyway, Happy Hunting
Stuart
The cost I put in to start with was only collecting from the found location and delivery to an export port, on top of this you have the cost of loading and lashing to a container(s), trucking, terminal charges, customs fees, seafreight, etc, etc, etc, in the end it could cost anywhere up to US$100,000 to US$150,000.00, maybe more if you have to provide "presents", and this only for a single airframe.
As has been stated before research is the main part of anything of this kind, by all means go and look, but also look very very carefully at the infrastructure of the area you are in this is of vital importance, no point in thinking of a recovery if there is no way to move anything of any weight to the shore.
Anyway, Happy Hunting
Stuart
Sun Jan 09, 2005 11:46 pm
Rob Wrote:
Hmm, I wonder how they would recognize it, if you remove all the rivets and call it aircraft replacement parts or scrap metal.
No You need in writing from US State Department and from DoD if you plan on going after any US Build Stuff and this means any RAF/RAAF Lend Lease items.
Hmm, I wonder how they would recognize it, if you remove all the rivets and call it aircraft replacement parts or scrap metal.
Sun Jan 09, 2005 11:56 pm
Wouldn't the economics of recovery be much better if you did like Yesterdays Air Force - break the airframes down to manageble parts and move an entire shiploads of "parts". They had a lot aircraft on that one landing craft, they were all just broken down to workable, storable, moveable components. Say Morotai has 30 (1986 inventory, excluding transports). Thats probably not too many more than Yesterdays Air Force moved on one boat, although they only had a few multi-engined planes, I think, and no heavies.
Sun Jan 09, 2005 11:57 pm
Hi
I agree with most of the post from Stuart
I have never actually had to pay the bills for a landing craft but that sounds about right so you can see what you are up for. An alternative that can be worked out is to have a bit of a chat with the local government/military and see if you can talk them into making it an "exercise" and use their Choppers/vehicles/boats - works a surprising number of times!!!
Kindest regards
John Parker
I agree with most of the post from Stuart
I have never actually had to pay the bills for a landing craft but that sounds about right so you can see what you are up for. An alternative that can be worked out is to have a bit of a chat with the local government/military and see if you can talk them into making it an "exercise" and use their Choppers/vehicles/boats - works a surprising number of times!!!
Kindest regards
John Parker
Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:01 am
Loosely speaking I think that's precisely how to do it George. I have a lot more to say that should stay off this discussion board or remain pm'ed among trusted sources for obvious reasons. I'd have to keep it to an AOPA board or something to that extent.
Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:10 am
Hi
I agree with most of the post from Stuart
I have never actually had to pay the bills for a landing craft but that sounds about right so you can see what you are up for. An alternative that can be worked out is to have a bit of a chat with the local government/military and see if you can talk them into making it an "exercise" and use their Choppers/vehicles/boats - works a surprising number of times!!!
Kindest regards
John Parker
Yes, that appears to be popular Diemert himself did it that way. I imagine having a high ranking decision making pal would pay off. I believe the RAAF does thins kind of thing in PNG.
Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:18 am
Hi
Yes but it has to be a two way deal - the Australian Military provides a lot of aid and local infrastructure as well as offsetting what is taken with something in return such as the Boston that will go back to PNG when they get a building to house it.
Regards
John P
Yes but it has to be a two way deal - the Australian Military provides a lot of aid and local infrastructure as well as offsetting what is taken with something in return such as the Boston that will go back to PNG when they get a building to house it.
Regards
John P
Mon Jan 10, 2005 1:54 am
Ya know......Just day dreaming but it would awesome if WIX got organized to the point that we could plan and carried out recoveries on our own. If we had our own aircraft and with enough people involved with WIX that could volunteer and contribute as schedules allowed. In my Day dream I was thinking more along lines of a Douglas C-124C Globemaster dressed in a striking WIX paint scheme. Plenty of cargo space for supplies, euipment and personell. As well as being large enough the take on and bring transport dissmantled aircraft or what have you. Rugged Radial engine design with cargo accessability via huge calm shell doors and a equipment elevator in the aft of the aircraft. Also thought about the C-133 but there are wing issued the aircraft. The bane of every pipe dream is of course funding. So until we got sponsored, recieved donations, recoupe costs from the sales of recovered items to indivduals or museum organisations, or combination of all three. Like I said I day dreaming so shoot me. 
Shay
Shay