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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:01 pm 
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Hellcat wrote:
I heard two recent instances where a pilot in formation was not doing such a great job. The first was at the POF airshow last year. The P-38 in invasion stripes was not keeping up with the other two P-38's.


The pilot of that P-38 was not certified for formation work at that time. That is why he was keeping his distance from the other two.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:09 pm 
MX304 wrote:
Hellcat wrote:
I heard two recent instances where a pilot in formation was not doing such a great job. The first was at the POF airshow last year. The P-38 in invasion stripes was not keeping up with the other two P-38's.


The pilot of that P-38 was not certified for formation work at that time. That is why he was keeping his distance from the other two.


That's interesting, how could he be up there at all? I'm not disputing anything here, I just don't know the rules about formation flying, he seemed OK a few times as far as being in formation. I talked to the pilot of the POF P-38, he stated the other pilot was just kind of new to flying formation.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:59 pm 
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At Kenosha, WI and three days later at Oshkosh 1988, I remember the NATA T-6 guys put up 56 aircraft. Stoney might have a more accurate number, but that's what I remember.
I spent 3 amazing days at Kenosha while they practiced and then drove to OSH to catch their formation arrival on day 4.
Boy, was it something!
Jerry

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:40 pm 
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[quote="Hellcat"]I heard two recent instances... The second was at the gathering of Mustangs were one P-51 was not keeping up with the rest to create the large "51" in the air. You see this in the photos of the "51" .... This was information passed on to me, probably was wrong info, but what do you guys think? ...[quote]

Hellcat,

I was there and I happened to have the airboss freq tuned in. I heard him specifically say to everyone to just get in position and to not keep correcting for every little discrepancy. It was very interesting and most of those transmissions are on my video footage. I'll have to post some of that 51 flight here.

Pete


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:03 am 
CH2Tdriver wrote:
Hellcat wrote:
I heard two recent instances... The second was at the gathering of Mustangs were one P-51 was not keeping up with the rest to create the large "51" in the air. You see this in the photos of the "51" .... This was information passed on to me, probably was wrong info, but what do you guys think? ...
Quote:

Hellcat,

I was there and I happened to have the airboss freq tuned in. I heard him specifically say to everyone to just get in position and to not keep correcting for every little discrepancy. It was very interesting and most of those transmissions are on my video footage. I'll have to post some of that 51 flight here.

Pete


That makes better sense to me. But, as usual, others who didn't hear, but saw, would come up with a different story. Thanks for clearing that one up.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:06 am 
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Hellcat wrote:
For those of you who fly or have flown formation, what are your thoughts?


So long as everyone performs their two roles in the formation correctly (lead: clear for the flight, wingman: stay in position or correct into position), then flying in gigantic formations in to problem.

Naturally they have to have some tight deconfliction rules established well before the flight, and the flight has to be either closely briefed beforehand (in the case of a warbird show) or has to adhere to standardized rules (for a military strike package).

Although it is a little disconcerting to look out the window and see so many other airplanes around you, it's not "scary" -- unless you don't trust the abilities of the pilots around you!!


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:18 am 
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The largest formation I have flown in was 50+ Hueys for graduation flyover at Ft. Rucker. Used to be an honored tradition that the graduating class over flew the flag pole in front of the Army Aviation Command HQ prior to the graduation ceremony. Happened every 2 weeks as they graduated a class. If during your year long school you ever got down in the dumps or felt like the end would never get there, all you had to do was look up and see a graduation fly over and you had all the motivation you needed to press on. I understand that at some point about 10 years ago, somone one at the General Staff level decided that it was a waste of resources and removed it from the cirriculm. You only needed to have heard that sound, just once, to know that it was worth every penny.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:22 am 
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Randy Haskin wrote:
Hellcat wrote:
For those of you who fly or have flown formation, what are your thoughts?


So long as everyone performs their two roles in the formation correctly (lead: clear for the flight, wingman: stay in position or correct into position), then flying in gigantic formations in to problem.

Naturally they have to have some tight deconfliction rules established well before the flight, and the flight has to be either closely briefed beforehand (in the case of a warbird show) or has to adhere to standardized rules (for a military strike package).

Although it is a little disconcerting to look out the window and see so many other airplanes around you, it's not "scary" -- unless you don't trust the abilities of the pilots around you!!


Randy-

What you are saying is correct... absolutely. The trouble is that most civilian trained Leads are not really good at their jobs... sorry to say that, but it is my experience. Sure we (civilian Formation) need more practice for wingman... but we need more education/experience for Leads. You and I both know that being a good lead is WAY harder than being a good wingman.

For instance, I was in a T-6 big gaggle... about 12 4-ships... the Gaggle Lead did the first half of the rejoin straight ahead... then began a turn to the right... I was in the backseat of #2 in the second 4-ship on the inside of the turn. The Lead of this flight did not compensate for the increased closure until almost overrunning the next flight ahead... a quick chop in power... both wingman immediately closed the difference... #4 bailed. It was extremely dangerous... and frankly no fault of the wingman... but they are the ones that got the heat in the debrief... go figure.

Discipline and good leadership are key... my nickel.

gunny

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 Post subject: Hellcat
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:36 pm 
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Hellcat, As for a being worried about potential collision in a big group, it is similar to flying over mountains or water. If you focus on the danger, yes it is some concern, the potential for big wreck is there. But once you decide to do the show you put it in the back of your mind and concentrate on what you must do as one pilot in one plane. I certainly think about which way is "out" if there is an emergency, usually down and to the side in a step down formation.
At a big show like Osh you may know the experience of many of the other pilots. You don't have a person join a big formation if it is their first time flying formation. Most of the groups hold a practice session or two during the year such as the one we used to have at Kenosha, or the one at Odessa for the T-6. I got my formation rating from Archie Donahue in the CAF in 1987, after flying with Carl Payne, Howard Pardue, Jackie Lee, etc. I later got a lot of good practice with Lou and the T-34 group who are very receptive to including new people in their training. Carl with the T-6 group used to give good ground school classes, and the video made by the T-28 group is the foundation for formation. Anybody wanting to learn should get this from EAA, etc. You can skip the first 30 minute which is mostly philoso-baloney, and really learn the next hour. The 2nd part is more advanced like formation takeoffs which I really enjoy. I have done a few formation landings which really gets your attention.
I have found once I got to a certain stage of formation capability, it seems to stay with me fairly well, and come back quickly the next season, more so than say instrument flying. I've never gotten good enough to be able ot stay centered through a lot of maneuvers like lazy 8s, but in normal flight with a smooth, gradual leader it is not too hard.
A formation rating is required to fly formation ONLY if you are in waivered airspace like a show. Often some of the pilots, even experienced ones don't have the card, but they can still fly, as single plane in trail, not joined up. Ain't no way a show wants to leave a P-38 parked just cause the pilot doesn't have a card.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:08 pm 
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This is an interesting read on the subject.

THE MIGHTY EIGHTH

Leslie A. Lennox
Lt./Col. USAF(ret)

Of all the stories that have been written, and movies that have been shown, about the 8th Air Force, very little attention has been given to what
was involved in assembling 1200 B-17's and B-24's each day, to get them information to carry out a strike against Germany. Certainly showing bombers under attack by fighters, or encountering heavy flak, was a reality, and are interesting to watch. Also, stories about some of the rougher missions make interesting reading. But what was going on over England, each morning, could get just as scary to the crews as the time spent over some of the targets. The planning, and coordination, that had to be accomplished during the night, by the operations planners of each Group, so that the crews could be briefed, was unbelievable. If the planners had failed to do their jobs properly, there would have been a free for all among Bomb Groups, in the skies over England. The rendezvous points, altitude, and times had to be precise, and known by all of the crews, before the Eighth Air Force could get in formation. The success of the planners, in accomplishing their mission, enabled the Eighth Air Force to become the most powerful air armada ever assembled. In my view, how this was accomplished is one of the major untold stories of the war.

I was a pilot in the 95th Bomb Group, in late 1944 and early 1945, and what follows is a typical mission, as I remember it, from a crew member's perspective.

Early in the evening, our Squadron Operations would post the names of the crews that were scheduled to fly the following day. There were two ways we could be notified if the Group had been alerted to fly. One was by means of lights on the front of the orderly room, and the other with raising of colored flags. If a green light was on, the Group was alerted, if a red light was on we would fly, and if a white light was on, the Group would stand down. The light was monitored frequently throughout the evening to learn our status and, normally, we would know before going to bed if we would be flying the next day.

On the morning of a mission, the CQ (charge of quarters) would awaken the crews about four or five o'clock, depending on takeoff time. The
questions we always asked were, "What is the fuel load?" and, "What is the bomb load?" If his answer was, " full Tokyo tanks," we knew we would be going deep into Germany. Shortly after being awakened, "6-by" trucks would start shuttling us to the mess hall. We always had all the fresh eggs we could eat, when flying a mission. After breakfast, the trucks carried us to the briefing room. All of the crew members attended the main briefing, and then the Navigators, Bombardiers and Radio operators went to a specialized briefing. At the main briefing, in addition to the target information--anti-aircraft guns, fighter escort and route in--we received a sheet showing our location in the formation, the call signs for the day and all the information we would need to assemble our Group and get into the bomber stream.

After briefing, we got into our flight gear, drew our parachutes and loaded onto the trucks for a ride to our plane. We were now guided by the
time on our daily briefing sheet. We started engines at a given time and watched for the airplane we would be flying in formation with to taxi past, then we would taxi behind him. We were following strict radio silence.

We were now parked, nose to tail around the perimeter, on both sides of the active runway, and extremely vulnerable to a fighter strafing attack. At the designated takeoff time, a green flare would be fired and takeoff would begin. Every thirty seconds an airplane started takeoff roll. We were lined up on the perimeter so that the 12 airplanes of the high squadron would take off first, followed by the lead and then the low squadron.

Each Group had a pattern for the airplanes to fly during climb to assembly altitude. Some would fly a triangle, some a rectangle and our Group
flew a circle, using a "Buncher" (a low frequency radio station) which was located on our station. The patterns for each Group fit together like a jig
saw puzzle. Unfortunately, strong winds aloft would destroy the integrity of the patterns, and there would be considerable over running of each other's
patterns.

Many of our takeoffs were made before daylight, during the winter of '44 and '45, when I was there, so it was not uncommon to climb through several thousand feet of cloud overcast. Also it was not uncommon to experience one or two near misses while climbing through the clouds, although you would never see the other airplane. You knew you had just had a near miss, when suddenly the airplane would shake violently as it hit the prop wash of another plane. It was a wonderful feeling to break out on top, so you could watch for other planes, to keep from running into each other. To add to the congestion we were creating, the Royal Air Force Lancasters, Halifaxes, and Wimpys would be returning from their night missions, and flying through our formations. Needless to say, pilots had to keep their heads on a swivel and their eyes out of the cockpit.

After take off, the squadron lead would fire a flare every 30 seconds, so that we could keep him located and enable us to get into formation
quicker. The color of our Group flare was red-green. The first thing you would see, when breaking out of the clouds, was a sky filled with pyrotechnics, so you had to search the sky for the Group flare, which would identify the lead airplane of your Squadron. Once you had it located, you could adjust your pattern to climb more quickly into formation with him. As each airplane pulled into formation, they would also fire a flare, with the lead plane, making it much easier for the following aircraft to keep him in sight. I think most crew members would probably agree that the pyrotechnic show, in the skies over England, in the morning when the Eighth was assembling, was a rare sight to behold.

The order of progression for assembling the Eighth Air Force was to first assemble the Flight elements, the Squadrons, the Groups ,the Combat
wings, the Divisions and, finally, the Air Force. As soon as the four Squadron elements were formed, the high, low and second elements would take up their positions on the lead element, to form a Squadron. When the three Squadrons had completed assembly, it was necessary to get into Group formation. This was accomplished by having the three Squadrons arrive over a pre-selected fix at a precise time and heading. The high and low Squadrons were separated from the lead Squadron by 1000 feet and, after getting into Group formation, they would maintain their positions by following the lead Squadron.

Then it was necessary to get into the Combat Wing formation. We were in the 13th Combat Wing, which consisted of three Bomb Groups: the 95th, the 100th and the 390th . Whichever Group was leading the Wing that day, would arrive over a pre-selected point, at a precise time and heading. Thirty seconds later, the second Group would pass that fix, followed by the third Group, thirty seconds later. We were then in Combat Wing formation. The navigators in the lead airplanes had a tremendous responsibility, to ensure that the rendezvous times were strictly adhered to.

There were three Divisions in the Eighth, the 1st, 2nd and 3rd. The 1st and 3rd Divisions consisted of B-17s only, and the 2nd Division was B-24s. The B-24s were faster than the B-17s, but the B-17s could fly higher, therefore, the two were not compatible in formation. As a result the 1st and 3rd Divisions would fly together and the 2nd Division would fly separately.

Now that the Groups were flying in Combat Wing formation, it was necessary to assemble the Divisions. This was usually accomplished at the
"coast out"--a city on the coast, selected as the departure point "fix." The Group leader in each Combat Wing knew his assigned position in the Division, and the precise time that he should arrive at the coast out departure point, to assume that position in the Division formation. The lead Group in the Division, which had been selected to lead the Eighth on the mission, would be first over the departure fix. Thirty seconds after the last Group in the first Wing passed that point, the second Wing would fall in trail, and so on, until all Combat Wings were flying in trail and the Division would be formed. One minute later, the lead Group in the other Division would fly over that point, and the Combat Wings in that Division would follow the same procedure to get into formation. When all of its Combat Wings were in trail, the Eighth Air Force B-17 strike force was formed and on its way to the target. At the same time the 2nd Division B-24s were assembling in a similar manner and also departing to their target.

Meanwhile, as the bombers were assembling for their mission, pilots from the Fighter Groups were being briefed on their day's mission. Normally, 600 to 800 P-38's, P-47's, and P-51's would accompany the bombers to provide protection against enemy fighter attacks. Fighter cover was not needed by the bombers until they were penetrating enemy territory, therefore to help conserve fuel,fighter takeoffs were planned to give them enough time to quickly assemble after takeoff, and climb on course up the bomber stream to the groups they would be covering. The combined strength of the fighters and bombers brought the total number of aircraft participating in a mission to approximately two thousand.

A major problem that presented itself, on each mission, was that the bomber stream was getting too stretched out. It was not uncommon for the
headlines in stateside newspapers--in trying to show the strength of our Air Force--to state that the first Group of bombers was bombing Berlin, while the last Group was still over the English Channel. It made great headlines but was a very undesirable situation. It meant that the Groups were out of position, and not keeping the proper separation. Furthermore, it was almost impossible for them to catch up and get back into the desired formation. This made the entire bomber stream more vulnerable to fighter attacks.

Finally, our planners figured out what we were doing wrong. When the first Group departed the coast out fix, it started its climb to what would
be the bombing altitude. Then, as each succeeding Group departed that fix, it, too, would start climbing. The problem with this procedure was that, as soon as the first Group started its climb, its true airspeed would start to increase, and it would encounter different wind velocities. Now it would start to pull away from the Group in back of it, and the "stretchout" of the bomber stream would begin. By the time the last Group had reached the coast out, to start its climb, the first Group would be leveled off, with a true airspeed approaching 250 miles per hour, and the bomber stream would be really stretching out.

The solution to this problem that had been frustrating the Bomber crews for so long was pretty simple. We would no longer start climbing at the
coast out, but instead, at a designated time, all Groups would start climbing, irrespective of position. This meant that we all would have similar true airspeeds and would be influenced by the same winds aloft. That took care of the problem. It was still possible for a Group to be out of position, because of poor timing, but the entire bomber stream wouldn't get all stretched out.

When you consider the way our Air Traffic Control system operates today, and all the facilities at their disposal to guide each individual airplane through the sky to ensure its safety, it's almost unbelievable that we were able to do what we did. To think of launching hundreds of airplanes, in a small airspace, many times in total darkness, loaded with bombs, with complete radio silence, and no control from the ground, and do it successfully
day after day, with young air crews, with minimum experience, is absolutely mind boggling.

The accomplishments of the Eighth Air Force have been and will be reviewed by historians from World War II on. There never will be another air armada to compare to it. I feel confident that they will never cease to be amazed by our ability to assemble hundreds of heavy Bombers, under the
conditions we were confronting, into the devastating strike force we now fondly refer to as, "The Mighty Eighth."
...................................

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 Post subject: 8th
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:44 pm 
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Thanks,Leslie. Most of the rest of us are just playing at being pilots.

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 Post subject: 8th
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:47 pm 
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Thanks,Leslie. Most of the rest of us are just playing at being pilots.

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Bill Greenwood
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:05 pm 
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Hellcat wrote:
Quote:
From a pilot or technique standpoint it doesn't make a lot of difference how many other planes are there; you are just focusing on one and formating on that one.


Bill, did you ever worry about who was behind you and if someone may have been flying at a faster clip than you? ... this is probably not a good example, but I envision what happens on the freeway when a car far ahead slows down for some reason and all the rest behind start to clump up. Does anything like this happen? ....

I have flown in large formations will Bill at Oshkosh. The main concern with all of the pilots in the mass formation was " Where's Bill?" :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Last edited by FG1D Pilot on Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:06 pm 
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Hellcat wrote:
Quote:
From a pilot or technique standpoint it doesn't make a lot of difference how many other planes are there; you are just focusing on one and formating on that one.


Bill, did you ever worry about who was behind you and if someone may have been flying at a faster clip than you? ... this is probably not a good example, but I envision what happens on the freeway when a car far ahead slows down for some reason and all the rest behind start to clump up. Does anything like this happen? ....

I have flown in large formations will Bill at Oshkosh. The main concern with all of the pilots in the mass formation was " Where's Bill" :lol: :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:16 pm 
FG1D Pilot wrote:
Hellcat wrote:
Quote:
From a pilot or technique standpoint it doesn't make a lot of difference how many other planes are there; you are just focusing on one and formating on that one.


Bill, did you ever worry about who was behind you and if someone may have been flying at a faster clip than you? ... this is probably not a good example, but I envision what happens on the freeway when a car far ahead slows down for some reason and all the rest behind start to clump up. Does anything like this happen? ....

I have flown in large formations will Bill at Oshkosh. The main concern with all of the pilots in the mass formation was " Where's Bill" :lol: :lol: :lol:


Ouch!!! .... and you even had to post it twice for a double effect .... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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