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Classic Wings Magazine WWII Naval Aviation Research Pacific Luftwaffe Resource Center
When Hollywood Ruled The Skies - Volumes 1 through 4 by Bruce Oriss


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 Post subject: Great Story
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:04 pm 
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Larry,
Thanks for sharing that story. I heard tales of your single engine landing in the B-17 when I moved to Tucson in 1982. I kept my Stearman at Avra Valley Airport so I frequented some of the watering holes between Pinal Air Park and Avra Valley. To be honest, I thought the story was mostly BS but it sure was a good one. When I went to work for Evergreen in 1989, the story came up a few more times but still, I was never quite sure it really happened. Now I know that it did. I'll bet that was a heck of a ride!

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:09 pm 
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Wow! What an exercise in situational control and "adaption". :shock: Nice job, well done!

Now add to that, your crew is shot up, your engines died from attack not starvation, half your vertical stabilizer is missing, and you're 19 years old!

Kind of let's you know what our Dads, Grandfathers, Uncles, Brothers went through. :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:51 pm 
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Great story!...but notice Larry did not mention any thing about leg cramps or a sweaty brow or any of that stuff... :wink: What a stud! You the Man!

:lol:

Thanks for sharing with us!

Z

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:57 pm 
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Great story Larry, and well told. Looks like we have discovered another fine author in the group! :drink3:


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:33 am 
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I completely agree with Brandon (bdk)...a wild ride and a well written story where I felt as if I was there. Holy smokes, man...what an experience you had there! Good job getting it back.

Gary


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:36 am 
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Great story, Larry, thanks for sharing it. I wonder if the fuel peculiarities have been changed or if the Tallichet folks have ever been told about the Tokyo tanks. I wounder if it still has Tokyo tanks at all ?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:13 am 
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What a fascinating story! Thanks very much for putting so much time into the telling of it too. You write really well. I was literally on the edge of my seat! It was quite a testament to your flying skills too and your ability to keep a cool head as well. Would love to hear more of these stories... not only are they thrilling reading, but they serve a very useful purpose for informing current pilots too. You should really think of publishing that story... it reads extremely well, and you have some interesting photographs to fill it out too.

Cheers, and all the best,
Richard

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:42 am 
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I'm curious about feathering propellers. I understand how a constant speed prop works but not really sure how feathering works. Is there an accumulater to feather the prop if you lose oil pressure? What holds it feathered – is it a counterweight? How can you unfeather without oil pressure (as was Larry's plan A to return home without anyone being the wiser?)
My experience with props is strictly single-engined.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:47 pm 
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Hamilton Standard Hydromatic props use engine oil that works on either side of a piston in the prop dome after being boosted by the prop governor.There is a separate high pressure feather pump that has a stand pipe in the oil tank below where the oil inlet line to the engine oil pump connects to the tank.This supposedly ensures that the prop can be feathered,even if the normal oil supply has been depleted.This same pump unfeathers the prop as well.The B-17 flight manual has several pages describing the cockpit procedure,but the pages below from an A-26 flight manual give a better basic description of the Ham Standard prop.I'll see if I have something that shows the governor in action.Maybe there's something in my DC-7 manuals.The feathering procedure is basically identical in these props from Twin Beeches through DC-7's.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:02 pm 
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Larry Kraus wrote:
Hamilton Standard Hydromatic props use engine oil that works on either side of a piston in the prop dome after being boosted by the prop governor.

Not too dissimilar to the Ham-Std on a C-130!!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:42 pm 
Wow... Thanks for taking the time to share that. That's a classic!


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:05 pm 
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Scott,I ended up spending most of September the begining of October of 1980 at Fox Field in Tanker 68.It was a split contract that started in Alamogordo in April and moved to West Yellowstone in July.They wanted to close the base at WYS around September 1st because of freezing conditions and crummy weather.I ended up going to Porterville and Fresno before ending up at Fox.I don't think that I got to Hemet,but I'd have to check my logs,which I don't have with me at the moment.I do have a picture of Tanker 81 at Silver City from a fire that we both worked out of SVC in 1980.I'll post it below with a few others from the same day.I ended up flying Tanker 22 in 1983 for Evergreen while they tried to find a replacement pilot when theirs failed his flight physical at the last minute.I'll post something about that airplane sometime.It had a fantastic instrument panel left over from it's "Operation Skyhook" days.The last two pictures of of the cockpit of T22.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:59 pm 
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Larry, when you were flying the B-17s, did you think they were anything special at the time (i.e. "I'm flying the legendary B-17), or were they just "trucks" to you...a tool to do a job?

Thank you for sharing your stories and your pics of these B-17s doing their final service to this country before they were retired and turned into cherished living memorials to those who flew them over 60 years ago.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:53 pm 
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SaxMan,I was an airplane nut from the time that I got my first airplane ride over Cape Cod in a Stinson Voyager at age 7.I grew up next door to the Naval Air Station at South Weymouth and was surrounded by Navy and Marine reserve aircraft,including PB4Y's,P2V's,S2F's,A4D's,R5D's WV-2's and many others.We lived just outside the edge of the blimp ramp and were overflown daily by ZPG-2W's and ZPG-3W's.Every year,the Blue Angels put on a show with F11F's in my backyard.My dream was to fly as a Navy pilot off of aircraft carriers,but that was never a realistic option because I don't have 20/20 uncorrected vision.

In 1962,when I was 14,the family moved to Goleta,near Santa Barbara,CA.It was a real culture shock.I might as well have moved to Mars.I lived about 5 miles from the Santa Barbara Airport,which is the old MCAS Goleta.When school let out for the summer in 1963,I was exploring the airport on my bicycle and discovered the tanker base.There was an F7F and a TBM based there.I timidly talked to the pilots and came back to the base every day.They took me under their wings,so to speak and made me the tanker base gofer.

I washed the airplanes and was even paid to do it.I'd have gladly done it for free,just to climb around on,and in the case of the TBM,in those airplanes.Eventually,I was put to work mixing Borate (yes,Borate) and loading tankers and even marshalling them into parking during fire busts.I also idolized the pilots and the mechanics who worked on the tankers and hung around them after hours while they carried out maintenance.They were indulgent enough to let me try to help them and pass wrenches and the answered my never ending questions.I worked at the base in my spare time until going into the Army in 1967.I got my Private Pilot's License in a Taylorcraft shortly before going into the Army.I managed to get several hours of dual from Howard Haradon,who owned and operated a TBM (Tanker 52).

I went to an aircraft engine repairman course at Ft. Eustis and ended up spending two years in the 1st Cav in Vietnam.I was qualified to work on both recip and turbine engines,but only worked on T-53's and T-63's in the Army.I ended up in a 20 man direct support maintenance unit that didn't have enough dedicated engine work,so I cross-trained in airframe maintenance on UH-1's,AH-1's and OH-6A's.I extended my tour after the first year to fly in the 1/9 Cav,which was a recon unit in the 1st Cav.I spent the second year flying as a crewchief/obsever/gunner/mechanic in OH-6's.That was very exciting,but not good for life expectancy.

I got out of the Army in August of 1970 and went back to Goleta.I spent a year and a half driving a gas truck for Santa Barbara Aviation.I bought a Taylorcraft and flew it as often as I could and still worked around the tanker base during fire busts.This time fuelling the tankers.Finally,in 1972,I decided to use my G.I. Bill to get my Commercial,Multi-Engine and Instrument Ratings.Just after I got my Commercial License,and was starting on my multi rating,an opprtunity came up to fly as co-pilot in a B-17 for a brief period.

Aero Union's Tanker 17 aka N9323Z (which is now Sentimental Journey) was in Goleta on an extension of it's Coolidge,AZ contract.It was early September and the co-pilot needed to go back to school at Cochice College.Denny Conner (who's son Brent flies a P-3 for Aero Union these days) let my tanker pilot buddies talk him into using me as a replacement c/p.The idea being that we'd probably sit around for a week or two and at most do a couple of water drops.I couldn't believe my luck.

This was a big jump,as the hottest airplane that I'd flown as PIC up to that time was a Cessna 172,unless you count the couple of hours that I'd spent hearding a Baron around at the beginning of my multi-engine training (now on hold).The first flight was a revelation in a number of ways.I'd flown in a Beech 18 from Goleta to LAX and back once,which was flown by Howard Haradon,but that was it for multi-engine taildraggers with radials.

I hadn't quite mastered keeping the props on the Baron synched,and it had a synch wheel.Tanker 17 was in need of some repairs that were being deferred as it was going to be released at any moment back to Areo Union.Only the #1 tach worked properly,for instance,and while #2 bounced plus or minus 300 rpm,#3 and 4 were completely dead.There were also problems with the turbo amplifiers and it was common to have the wastegate open on one of the turbos in flight when the 1/2 amp fuse would blow in the amplifier box.

The first flight was out to do a water drop in the hills north of the airport.There were two F7F's based at Goleta at the time with Stew Kunkee and Buck Radcliffe flying them,if I remember correctly.They took off first and raced out to do their drops so that they could come back and make pursuit curve gun runs on us as we lumbered out to the drop area.That gave me a real idea of how helpless it must have felt to fly a B-17 in combat.

When we got to the drop area,I was trying to set up the power and follow Denny's instructions in the drop pattern.I happened to look up on final for the first run and all that I could see was canyon walls.That was also a revelation,as I thought "You know,this is a lot more fun to watch than it is to do!".That thought comes back occasionally,even now,as I still fly tankers.Anyway,we survived the flight and I managed to prove that if you are competent in a B-17,you can fly it successfully even with an idiot in the right seat trying to kill you at every opportunity.I've been paid back in spades in that category over the years by co-pilots of my own.

We ended up flying maybe 10 hours on a couple of fires,including one out of Porterville to a burning log deck at the Inyokern Mill.So,I can say tht out of my first 18 hours of multi-engine time,10 of them were in a B-17.I was offered a job as a B-17 c/p by Larry Hill,who worked for TBM Inc. flying Tanker 61,which is now in the museum at what used to be Castle AFB.Incidentally,that was TBM's only Boeing built B-17.Most of the tankers were built by Douglas at Long Beach.

I also had an opportunity to go to work for Mission Airlines,which flew Beech 18's out of Goleta hauling explosives around the country.Since I had about 330 hours total time and less than 20 multi,I thought that I could build experience faster in the Beech and maybe come back to tankers some day.That turned out to be a good decision.

I came to work for TBM in April of 1975 and by that time had more than 4000 hours of PIC time in the Twin Beech.Hank Moore,who did the hiring at TBM,thought that a few thousand hours in Beech 18's would be a good background for the B-17.I flew as Bob Forbes c/p in Tanker 65 aka N5237V (now at the R.A.F. Museum in London) on a CDF contract out of Porterville and was typed in the B-17 at the end of the season.I flew as c/p for Ralph Rensink for the next two years from a variety of bases and was turned loose in 1978 as pilot of Tanker 65 on a couple of 45 day contracts for the CDF out of Fresno and Santa Rosa.For the rest of the 1978 season,I flew as c/p to Bob Forbes in Tanker 68 out of Porterville.

This is getting to be quite a narrative,so I'll end it for now by finally answering your question.Yes,I always thought that it was something very special to be able to fly a B-17.However,I often questioned the "Queen of the Skies" bit as I struggled out of a deep canyon at a 250 foot per minute climb rate,or trying to make it turn in a hurry when a canyon wall was getting too close.I finally figured out that you can at least get the nose pointed in a different direction in that situation by bootnig in a lot of rudder.You may still be heading for the hillside for a couple of seconds,but the view out of the windshield is more encouraging.It also took me a while to learn most of the other tricks to successfully flying B-17's as tankers.I was very reluctant to switch over to flying DC-7's,but that was not a bad deal,either.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:25 pm 
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Thanks for sharing your experiences Larry. Really fascinating stuff. 8)

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