Putting legs on a Swordfish...

[JDK]

heck people - it was war, there's a thing called field-applied markings and they were always 100% to spec. Just look at any mid-war pictures of US Navy aircraft in particular. Many had their original 3-tone scheme hand painted 1-tone dark blue and you could see it plain as day.

First time I've heard there 'there's a war on don't cha know' getout used for a modern restoration...

There was a war on That war's over, that excuse isn't applicable for a non-standard job today, I'd think. Seems reasonable to me if it's recreating a specific non standard scheme, but we've had the 'near enough is good enough' debate already, several times. I don't know enough about roundels to comment specifically here though.

Yeah, Taylor but you are an uninformed Yank !

Ooo. harsh. Shouldn't the software automatically change that to 'educatable ex-colonial'?

If you want to make it look really good and authentic put invasion stripes on it. I also think the shade of grey is wrong. Why can't people get it right knowing there are so many experts on this site! All you need to do is go down to the Swordfish store and check it out as to color and roundel application.

Of course that's be colour roundel application, being a Pommie (sorry, Limey) aircraft an all.

'Swordfish Store'

You know, If I were Gary, I'd be a bit peeved at the reception to posing the pics. But he's a nice guy. Thanks for the pics, Gary.

Removing my tongue from my cheek...

My understanding was the CAF tried to get a viable Bristol Pegasus, but that didn't happen. No engine - no flying airplane.

The sad thing is that as I write, there are currently no Swordfish airworthy anywhere in the world. There's one with Vintage Wings of Canada, which is under major overhaul, the Royal Navy Historic Flight machines, again, awaiting return to the air (where are we on that 'RNHF'?) And that's it. The Shearwater Nova Scotia machine flew, but is grounded since.

Without the Swordfish, no Taranto, no Japanese observers, no Pearl Harbor...

Regards,

[Obergrafeter]

NO PEARL HARBOR!!!!!!! Better get the Tora gang involved. They should have enough money to get the Swordfish flyable!

[JDK]

NO PEARL HARBOR!!!!!!! Better get the Tora gang involved. They should have enough money to get the Swordfish flyable!

Yeah, and they wear that headband with the 'put this bit on front' red dot to keep their ears on. A bonus in the open cockpit.

[Roger Cain]

Sure looks a lot better than when I last saw it in 1989 at the Santa Monica Museum of flight (David Price)

[CAPFlyer]

heck people - it was war, there's a thing called field-applied markings and they were always 100% to spec. Just look at any mid-war pictures of US Navy aircraft in particular. Many had their original 3-tone scheme hand painted 1-tone dark blue and you could see it plain as day.

First time I've heard there 'there's a war on don't cha know' getout used for a modern restoration...

I was saying maybe they found a photo of the aircraft being represented wearing that roundel and used it. Just because it's not regulation doesn't mean it isn't accurate for the aircraft. That was the point.

[JDK]

I was saying maybe they found a photo of the aircraft being represented wearing that roundel and used it. Just because it's not regulation doesn't mean it isn't accurate for the aircraft. That was the point.

Actually, I kinda guessed that - but it wasn't how it read - to me anyway.

One of the most fascinating examples of non standard markings on a Swordfish were a very few operating off the Merchant Aircraft Carriers on the Atlantic run. These were Merchant ships with a (short) deck fitted to fly off a couple of Swordfish to protect the convoy across the U Boat infested sea.

The Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm crews were so honoured to work from the decks of these Merchant Navy ships, they wore MN badges in their buttonholes and on some Swordfish painted out the 'Royal' in 'Royal Navy' on their rear fuselage, above the serial, and had 'Merchant Navy' instead.

There was another captured by the Italians in the Med which went into full Italian camouflage.

[RNHF]

I was saying maybe they found a photo of the aircraft being represented wearing that roundel and used it. Just because it's not regulation doesn't mean it isn't accurate for the aircraft. That was the point.

Okay, happy to have a look at this photo and be proved wrong. I didn't mean to cause any offence by my comments, but it just baffles me as to why such a Herculean amount of effort goes into restorations only to have it all fall at the last hurdle when someone gets out their spray guns. This was something I was accutely aware when it was first mooted that the RNHF Sea Fury was going to be refinished. Knowing that it was the Air Station paintshop that was going to be doing the work, and not a specialist warbird outfit, I was extremely concerned that the result would be a modern take on a historic scheme (as per the late lamented Firefly was before her). That's why I put in so much of my own personal time to make sure it came out as it should.

James (JDK), you ask about the progress on LS326 - a News item was posted on the website late last week. There are a few items that really need correcting on her, paint-wise, but whether the opportunity to do those will arise before her next scheduled repaint remains to be seen. I'm doing my "Roundel Police" best!

Lee

[JDK]

Hi Lee,
Well, thanks to Roger Cain's photo, we can see that (at least) the roundel's been repainted from the Santa Monica display.

Here's a few photos from the archive:



The two RNHF Swordfish flying together at a Duxford airshow some years ago.

One of the few warbirds where the crew can give a salute flyby.

So, Lee, I guess W5856 is going to remain grounded for the foreseeable future? I remember John Beattie told me he didn't think it possible that all three Swordfish would be likely to fly together (due to engine part availability).



What's 'wrong' with the above scheme then? I understood that it was applied by PPS from advice and a scheme supplied by Ian Huntley in the early 90s(?) and was as accurate as possible at the time. Of course LS326 wasn't photographed as far as we know in her wartime MAC ship career...



Dramatic though this (the previous) scheme on '326 is, it's certainly 'wrong', from Ian Huntly's article at the time of the above repaint. The 'D Day stripes were applied in 1984 for the D Day celebrations at the time, over a hybrid previous scheme.



Of course when Fairey's operated her, she was in Fairey's house colours - silver wings, blue fuselage. Lovely. Can't argue with a manufacturer's own civil scheme!



As for the CAF machine, it, like most of the other North American examples was saved thanks to Ernie Simmons, and this is what they looked like on his farm.

Hope people find them interesting...

[RNHF]

LS326 was indeed re-covered and re-finished by PPS at Booker in 1987, aided by the research of Ian Huntley and drawings by Mike Keep, and a fine job they did of it too. However she was re-covered and re-finished again by a company at Lee-on-Solent in 1999, sadly not to the same meticulous standard. The result is a very bland, incorrectly styled "L2", ROYAL NAVY and serial - all commercially-produced stuff. Unfortunately, correcting this may well have to wait until she next has the fuselage re-covered, but I'm on the case!

W5856 is currently stored on site waiting for work to begin on the wing spars as per LS326. Unfortunately there is currently no firm plan as to when these will be done.

Before that, NF389 will hopefully join RNHF in the next couple of years. The markings for that particular aircraft are still in the melting pot. Curiously there are very few photographs of Mk.III Swordfish (the well-known ones being the overall black aircraft of 119 Sqn, but this was an RAF unit and therefore has, rightly, been ruled out!). Something else for me to work on!!

[PeterA]

I think the UK 'Roundel Police' will have a few comments on this one.

PeterA

..and indeed they have and very interesting too.

If, as may be the case, the roundel faithfully replicates an aircraft livery derived and carefully proportioned from a period photo, so be it and the Swordfish team can rightly smile at this thread.

I cannot speak with confidence on Royal Navy markings but as WWII progressed in to 1940 roundel changes and proportions were developed in the light of operational experience and this was presumably in parallel with the RAF.

The Swordfish roundel appears to have the red white and blue proportions of the early A roundels, with the smaller red centre, as used on Spitfires from Feb to May 1940. To this has been added the outer yellow ring promulgated in May 1940, on Spitfires. This yellow ring was to be the same width as blue ring.

Significantly in signal X.485 it says :- In instances of slim fuselaged aircraft the roundels can be re-painted in a smaller size to accommodate the yellow ring, or, as a temporary measure, a narrower yellow ring can be used.

The width of the yellow ring applied by the Swordfish team appears to closely approximate to the proportion used on the later C.1 roundel used on Spitfires from May 1942 (as Bill Greenwood's Spitfire). This has created what at first sight looks to be a totally b'stard roundel but in fact my be totally representative of an individual aircraft or unit.

It would be nice to see the reference photos.

Now I have got to paint this 'Star & bar thingy' on Joe Blow's Pea fifty something or the other. Does the pointy bit go at the top or the bottom...does it matter?

PeterA

[RickH]

Peter, it only matters, as James puts it, to the Colonials in attendance !

[ww2John]

I bet the original intent of this posting was to share some visual proof of the progress that this a/c and her group has made.

Thanks again for sharing these photos and related information with those of us too far away to drop in for a visit.

...ah...what's a roundel??

[Bill Greenwood]

Peter A, about that star and bar on the side of the 51, just slap it on any way, after all it's not like anyone is going to notice are they? And for all you nitpickers (that is Colonial for detail fanatics) , how about finding some new spars or a serviceable engine for the Swordfish and maybe it can fly one day. It is impressive looking and I notice the cockpit looks pretty complete.

[Django]

Gary, thanks for posting. I know very little about these birds. Looks interesting. Will she spend her days there in a corner of the hangar?

[retroaviation]

Will she spend her days there in a corner of the hangar?

Yup.