Help matchup the nav light and access panel holes on wreckag
Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:44 pm
Hello:
The picture below is of a piece of rear fuselage wreckage we located in the Pacific. It is either the rear fuselage from a F6F-5 Hellcat or TBM-1C Grumman Avenger. The angle of the picture is looking inside the fuselage piece looking back. On the right side you can see the hole for navigation light (likely) and below it (to the left) you can see a rectangle access panel. Towards the back on the right side of the picture you can see an a-frame type of joint.
Can anyone help match up the nav light and access panel holes with either a F6F-5 or TBM-1C.? I would greatly appreciate anyone’s help to identify this piece of rear fuselage wreckage.
High Res Picture (3 MB)
http://www.missingaircrew.com/images/weckage.JPG
Low Res Picture (110KB)
http://www.missingaircrew.com/images/weckage2.jpg
Thanks,
-Pat
----------------------------------
Patrick T. Ranfranz
307th Bomb Group Historian, www.307bg.org
Missing Air Crew Project Founder, www.missingaircrew.com
[/img]
The picture below is of a piece of rear fuselage wreckage we located in the Pacific. It is either the rear fuselage from a F6F-5 Hellcat or TBM-1C Grumman Avenger. The angle of the picture is looking inside the fuselage piece looking back. On the right side you can see the hole for navigation light (likely) and below it (to the left) you can see a rectangle access panel. Towards the back on the right side of the picture you can see an a-frame type of joint.
Can anyone help match up the nav light and access panel holes with either a F6F-5 or TBM-1C.? I would greatly appreciate anyone’s help to identify this piece of rear fuselage wreckage.
High Res Picture (3 MB)
http://www.missingaircrew.com/images/weckage.JPG
Low Res Picture (110KB)
http://www.missingaircrew.com/images/weckage2.jpg
Thanks,
-Pat
----------------------------------
Patrick T. Ranfranz
307th Bomb Group Historian, www.307bg.org
Missing Air Crew Project Founder, www.missingaircrew.com
[/img]
Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:07 pm
I'm having a tough time getting my bearings. Do you have any more pictures?
Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:49 pm
Here's the same picture with my notes. I took the picture by putting my head and body inside the piece of wreckage and taking the picture looking through the rear looking down to the tail that is broken off. http://www.missingaircrew.com/images/weckage2a.jpg
Additional pictures of this piece and other pieces of wreckage near this piece can be viewed at:
http://www.missingaircrew.com/trip/american2/water/
http://www.missingaircrew.com/trip/american2/
At first we though the wreckage might have been from a B-24, however, after returning home we found the pieces seemed to match up better with a F6F. Recently I found records that a TBM went down in this area of the harbor from VT-31 (USS Cabot) on July 26 or 27th, 1944. I'm now trying to see if I can match the pieces with a F6F or a TBM.
Thanks,
-Pat
Additional pictures of this piece and other pieces of wreckage near this piece can be viewed at:
http://www.missingaircrew.com/trip/american2/water/
http://www.missingaircrew.com/trip/american2/
At first we though the wreckage might have been from a B-24, however, after returning home we found the pieces seemed to match up better with a F6F. Recently I found records that a TBM went down in this area of the harbor from VT-31 (USS Cabot) on July 26 or 27th, 1944. I'm now trying to see if I can match the pieces with a F6F or a TBM.
Thanks,
-Pat
Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:55 pm
I'm going with Hellcat.
Unfortunately that's a pretty screwed up wreck you found there.
In this picture however...
http://www.missingaircrew.com/trip/american2/water/IMG_0410.jpg
...it appears that the crescent shaped formers on the lower right side of the photo are the same that give the more peaked shape to the Hellcats upper fuselage. If this picture is right side up, and the view is to the aft, the fuselage is sitting on its left side.
I also crawled around the back of the Olympic Flight Museum Avenger today just to be safe. I couldn't see anything familiar from your photos. The Avenger has a much more round fuselage than the Hellcat. It looks like there is some deformation of the structure, but not enough to make me think it could be an Avenger.
That's my take, anyone else agree?
Unfortunately that's a pretty screwed up wreck you found there.
In this picture however...
http://www.missingaircrew.com/trip/american2/water/IMG_0410.jpg
...it appears that the crescent shaped formers on the lower right side of the photo are the same that give the more peaked shape to the Hellcats upper fuselage. If this picture is right side up, and the view is to the aft, the fuselage is sitting on its left side.
I also crawled around the back of the Olympic Flight Museum Avenger today just to be safe. I couldn't see anything familiar from your photos. The Avenger has a much more round fuselage than the Hellcat. It looks like there is some deformation of the structure, but not enough to make me think it could be an Avenger.
That's my take, anyone else agree?
Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:47 am
it's all to crusty for me to i.d. sorry!!
Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:01 am
Looks like Hellcat to me 
Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:30 am
I remember working hard on this one on WIX about a year ago. I posted a bunch of photos that compared your wreck shots to F6F-5 that I had taken. I think they matched real well.
Here is the link to the original thread:
http://www.warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9736&highlight=
Here is a copy of the photos and information posted:
Hello Pat,
The more I look at the wreckage photos on your web site, the more I think that it might not be a B-24.
The photo showing the mount and the surrounding wreckage has too many curves and points to be from a B-24 structure, especially where the upward recognition light was located.
The structure looks like a strake or ventral fin leading to the vertical stabilizer similar to what I have seen in a B-17 or C-47. The problem with the strake is that it gets larger as it moves forward on the fuselage (according to the tear drop cut out of the recognition light).
I remember seeing a recognition light on top of a fuselage similar to this, so I dug into some old photos that I had taken at the Fleet Air Arm Museum in Yovelton, England.
Take a look at the crescent shaped formers with the lightening holes at the top of the fuselage. I have rotated your shot so the light and the top of the fuselage is vertical.
The shots below show the aft part of the fuselage with the triangular structure where the horizontal stabilizer attaches. The bulkhead construction and the lightening hole patterns are very similar.
These photos show the AN104 antenna. At the top of the photo on the right you can barely see the bottom of the antenna, the coax, connector and its mounting bracket. The lightening hole is visible that matches the former in your shot. The flange on the former and the side of the I beam that the antenna is mounted on also match your photo.
The built up I beam structure makes up the beefy roll over structure behind the pilot's head and armor plate.
[img]http://www.twinbeech.com/images/F6F/antenna_07[1].jpg[/img]
The clincher for me was the radio rack photo. The data tag shows the rack to be from an ARC-5 set. The ARC-5 was a Navy set and would not be found in the Army B-24. The Army used a similar set under the designation SCR-274N. Army radio components would have Signal Corp tags. The photo on the right shows the Navy ARC-5 rack installed in the rear fuselage (painted black wrinkle finish).
[img]http://www.twinbeech.com/images/F6F/b24part_207[1].jpg[/img]
All of these parts seem to come from the same area of the aft fuselage of a Grumman F6F Hellcat. Below are two shots of F6F-5's. The one on the left is KE-209 at the Fleet Air museum in Yovelton, England. The one on the right is, or was, Paul Allen's F6F-5K bureau number 79863.
You can see the AN104 antenna as well as the upward recognition light. The recognition light on the Royal Navy bird has been changed with a blue formation light. On the FHC Hellcat there appears to be two lights installed on top of the fuselage. This aircraft has had some civilian mods so one of the lights may be a strobe, I just can't recall.
My best guess is that you have a Hellcat, and I bet that from the ARC-5 CBY contract markings on the radio rack data plate that it will turn out to be an F6F-5.
I am sorry if this information doesn't help to identify your Uncles B-24. I can only imagine how important it is for you to find him and his crew.
Sincerely,
Taigh
Here is another part of the same thread showing the engine mount:
Hello Pat,
I think that your photos show what’s left of the engine and mount. The V shaped tubes look like the ones coming directly off of the firewall, which is not present.
I have rotated the shot to try and match the angle.
I might have a -2 for the F6F-5 but I am not sure. I didn't pull a cowling on the Fleet Air Arm museum's F6F so I do not have any engine compartment shots that might show the air oil separator. I will keep looking.
Taigh
Here is the link to the original thread:
http://www.warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9736&highlight=
Here is a copy of the photos and information posted:
Hello Pat,
The more I look at the wreckage photos on your web site, the more I think that it might not be a B-24.
The photo showing the mount and the surrounding wreckage has too many curves and points to be from a B-24 structure, especially where the upward recognition light was located.
The structure looks like a strake or ventral fin leading to the vertical stabilizer similar to what I have seen in a B-17 or C-47. The problem with the strake is that it gets larger as it moves forward on the fuselage (according to the tear drop cut out of the recognition light).
I remember seeing a recognition light on top of a fuselage similar to this, so I dug into some old photos that I had taken at the Fleet Air Arm Museum in Yovelton, England.
Take a look at the crescent shaped formers with the lightening holes at the top of the fuselage. I have rotated your shot so the light and the top of the fuselage is vertical.
The shots below show the aft part of the fuselage with the triangular structure where the horizontal stabilizer attaches. The bulkhead construction and the lightening hole patterns are very similar.
These photos show the AN104 antenna. At the top of the photo on the right you can barely see the bottom of the antenna, the coax, connector and its mounting bracket. The lightening hole is visible that matches the former in your shot. The flange on the former and the side of the I beam that the antenna is mounted on also match your photo.
The built up I beam structure makes up the beefy roll over structure behind the pilot's head and armor plate.
[img]http://www.twinbeech.com/images/F6F/antenna_07[1].jpg[/img]
The clincher for me was the radio rack photo. The data tag shows the rack to be from an ARC-5 set. The ARC-5 was a Navy set and would not be found in the Army B-24. The Army used a similar set under the designation SCR-274N. Army radio components would have Signal Corp tags. The photo on the right shows the Navy ARC-5 rack installed in the rear fuselage (painted black wrinkle finish).
[img]http://www.twinbeech.com/images/F6F/b24part_207[1].jpg[/img]
All of these parts seem to come from the same area of the aft fuselage of a Grumman F6F Hellcat. Below are two shots of F6F-5's. The one on the left is KE-209 at the Fleet Air museum in Yovelton, England. The one on the right is, or was, Paul Allen's F6F-5K bureau number 79863.
You can see the AN104 antenna as well as the upward recognition light. The recognition light on the Royal Navy bird has been changed with a blue formation light. On the FHC Hellcat there appears to be two lights installed on top of the fuselage. This aircraft has had some civilian mods so one of the lights may be a strobe, I just can't recall.
My best guess is that you have a Hellcat, and I bet that from the ARC-5 CBY contract markings on the radio rack data plate that it will turn out to be an F6F-5.
I am sorry if this information doesn't help to identify your Uncles B-24. I can only imagine how important it is for you to find him and his crew.
Sincerely,
Taigh
Here is another part of the same thread showing the engine mount:
Hello Pat,
I think that your photos show what’s left of the engine and mount. The V shaped tubes look like the ones coming directly off of the firewall, which is not present.
I have rotated the shot to try and match the angle.
I might have a -2 for the F6F-5 but I am not sure. I didn't pull a cowling on the Fleet Air Arm museum's F6F so I do not have any engine compartment shots that might show the air oil separator. I will keep looking.
Taigh
Last edited by Taigh Ramey on Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:41 am
Nice, I didn't have any internal shots of a Hellcat to go by, or one to look at first hand. After seeing the stuff that Taigh posted, it looks like a sure ID as a Hellcat.
I concur with the Hellcat ID. I
Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:35 pm
I concur with the Hellcat ID. I appreciate all the help I receive each time I post within this forum. Taigh did a nice job last fall comparing the wreckage pictures to pictures from a Hellcat.
Although we though the wreckage might have been from a B-24 when we were diving the site in 2006 (wishful thinking), I realized upon returning home that it was not. I have gone with the Hellcat ID since last fall but wanted to double check the comparison with a TBM since I recently found a Navy Action Report that places a TBM crash site near this site. The bottom line is that I’m now more confident then ever that this is a Hellcat site.
We plan to return to Yap next October (2008) to spend more time exploring this site as well as searching for all the other planes lost over Yap including my uncle’s B-24. It looks likely that we have someone lined up to bring side scanning sonar and other equipment (my fingers are crossed).
A complete list of all the planes and me lost over Yap is can be viewed at http://www.missingaircrew.com/yap/yapmissions.asp. Over the last two years we have located three F6F sites, one TBM, one FG-1A and have a number of unidentified sites that include American engines but little wreckage.
Thanks again for all the help!
-Pat
Although we though the wreckage might have been from a B-24 when we were diving the site in 2006 (wishful thinking), I realized upon returning home that it was not. I have gone with the Hellcat ID since last fall but wanted to double check the comparison with a TBM since I recently found a Navy Action Report that places a TBM crash site near this site. The bottom line is that I’m now more confident then ever that this is a Hellcat site.
We plan to return to Yap next October (2008) to spend more time exploring this site as well as searching for all the other planes lost over Yap including my uncle’s B-24. It looks likely that we have someone lined up to bring side scanning sonar and other equipment (my fingers are crossed).
A complete list of all the planes and me lost over Yap is can be viewed at http://www.missingaircrew.com/yap/yapmissions.asp. Over the last two years we have located three F6F sites, one TBM, one FG-1A and have a number of unidentified sites that include American engines but little wreckage.
Thanks again for all the help!
-Pat
Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:09 pm
Just a thought,
I didn't look into it yet, but have you decisively ruled out a Wildcat or a Corsair? I'm pretty convinced that it's a Hellcat, but your argument will be stronger if you can say for sure it's not one these others. I can try to look into when I get a chance.
Again, just a thought.
I didn't look into it yet, but have you decisively ruled out a Wildcat or a Corsair? I'm pretty convinced that it's a Hellcat, but your argument will be stronger if you can say for sure it's not one these others. I can try to look into when I get a chance.
Again, just a thought.
Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:23 pm
Curtis Block wrote:Just a thought,
I didn't look into it yet, but have you decisively ruled out a Wildcat or a Corsair? I'm pretty convinced that it's a Hellcat, but your argument will be stronger if you can say for sure it's not one these others. I can try to look into when I get a chance.
Again, just a thought.
Definitely not corsair. Rib structure is totally different.
Cheers,
Richard
Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:23 pm
Curtis Block wrote:Just a thought,
I didn't look into it yet, but have you decisively ruled out a Wildcat or a Corsair? I'm pretty convinced that it's a Hellcat, but your argument will be stronger if you can say for sure it's not one these others. I can try to look into when I get a chance.
Again, just a thought.
Definitely not corsair. Rib structure is totally different.
Cheers,
Richard
Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:24 pm
Curtis Block wrote:Just a thought,
I didn't look into it yet, but have you decisively ruled out a Wildcat or a Corsair? I'm pretty convinced that it's a Hellcat, but your argument will be stronger if you can say for sure it's not one these others. I can try to look into when I get a chance.
Again, just a thought.
Definitely not corsair. Rib structure is totally different.
Cheers,
Richard
Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:18 am
I looked closely at the Wildcat, Corsair and TBM interior rear fuselage images that I have and none of them seemed to match up. The similarities between the wreckage and the F6F are, from my perspective, very straight forward.
I concur with Taigh's work that the wreckage is a F6F-5
Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:32 pm
I concur with Taigh's work that the wreckage we located in the Yap harbor is from a Hellcat. Although a number of Corsair's were lost over Yap, no Wildcats were shot down in the area.
This is likely one of the three Hellcats shot down on 6 September 1944. I beleive we have found all three sites. One Hellcat was hit by AA fire and went into a hill west of Colonia. The wreckage we located in 2006 can be viewed at http://www.missingaircrew.com/trip/american1/. The other two Hellcats were hit by AA and collided. One plane went down in the jungle and we located it in 2005 http://www.missingaircrew.com/trip/american5/. The wreckage from this thread is likely the other plane from the collision that the action reports state nobody noticed it crash. It likely hit the water and that is why the other VF-20 planes only reported the crash sites of the two other planes.
Again, thanks for all the help!
-Pat
This is likely one of the three Hellcats shot down on 6 September 1944. I beleive we have found all three sites. One Hellcat was hit by AA fire and went into a hill west of Colonia. The wreckage we located in 2006 can be viewed at http://www.missingaircrew.com/trip/american1/. The other two Hellcats were hit by AA and collided. One plane went down in the jungle and we located it in 2005 http://www.missingaircrew.com/trip/american5/. The wreckage from this thread is likely the other plane from the collision that the action reports state nobody noticed it crash. It likely hit the water and that is why the other VF-20 planes only reported the crash sites of the two other planes.
Again, thanks for all the help!
-Pat