Sun Aug 19, 2007 11:31 pm
I would have loved to have that book out there. If I had it probably wouldn't have taken three dives to confirm my suspicions. As it was, all I had to work with were some very small and poor quality photos in a ratty book I found out there, and what little information I could find on the internet during the very short times we had power.
As for peoples questions.
I believe the aircraft are strewn and stacked because they probably floated for a while as the hold filled with water. I would imagine a sinking ship would be a rather violent affair. This is what truly complicated the task of identifying an amount of aircraft in the hold. Hundreds of 55 gallon drums are everywhere. Full or empty, they most likely settled long after the ship went down. I believe there are still many more aircraft that we did not find because they were buried under the barrels.
The ship also sits upright and does not appear to have rolled over as it sank. If it had I would doubt it would have time to right itself before settling on the bottom.
As for a recovery the biggest obstacle would be that it is illegal to remove any artifacts from Chuuk State. In my post on the Nakajima C6N “Myrt,” in “dumping and burring ‘stuff’ after WW2,” described how one example had been crated and removed from the islands. This was highly illegal. However with the rampant corruption in the government there it probably just cost a whole lot of money, and now what do you do with it it’s a hot item and there are only three known to exist? Don’t get me wrong. I’m a firm believer in restoring aircraft and flying the snot out of them. I’m just stating the facts.
Another obstacle in recovering the aircraft is that it’s in the hold of a ship, underwater. Though the wooden hold covers have long disintegrated the steal beams that held them or lent strength are still for the most part in place. The hold has two layers. The aircraft are in the bottom. It would be very difficult to snake the aircraft out and very destructive (and possibly dangerous) to remove the beams.
The condition of the aircraft really leaves something to be desired as well. As you can see in the pictures, the forward part of the turtle deck has been crushed. The aft fuselage is badly deteriorated, though the forward part still seems relatively strong. I can’t tell if the area burned or not. The Zeros are all very badly deteriorated. More so than others I saw out there. The tail feathers are missing as are the outer wings. Try as I might, I could not locate them. In the process however I did find a couple of more Zeros. When I found a wing I would follow it inboard. When I found a cockpit attached, I marked down another Zero. I do think I found the wheel pants however, and though I found the front of the cowling as I said I found no engines.
I still have that one nagging question. The same one that kept me from believing it really was a “Claude,” in the first place.
What is it doing there?
Ideas?
James K?
Anyone?
Curtis Block
As for peoples questions.
I believe the aircraft are strewn and stacked because they probably floated for a while as the hold filled with water. I would imagine a sinking ship would be a rather violent affair. This is what truly complicated the task of identifying an amount of aircraft in the hold. Hundreds of 55 gallon drums are everywhere. Full or empty, they most likely settled long after the ship went down. I believe there are still many more aircraft that we did not find because they were buried under the barrels.
The ship also sits upright and does not appear to have rolled over as it sank. If it had I would doubt it would have time to right itself before settling on the bottom.
As for a recovery the biggest obstacle would be that it is illegal to remove any artifacts from Chuuk State. In my post on the Nakajima C6N “Myrt,” in “dumping and burring ‘stuff’ after WW2,” described how one example had been crated and removed from the islands. This was highly illegal. However with the rampant corruption in the government there it probably just cost a whole lot of money, and now what do you do with it it’s a hot item and there are only three known to exist? Don’t get me wrong. I’m a firm believer in restoring aircraft and flying the snot out of them. I’m just stating the facts.
Another obstacle in recovering the aircraft is that it’s in the hold of a ship, underwater. Though the wooden hold covers have long disintegrated the steal beams that held them or lent strength are still for the most part in place. The hold has two layers. The aircraft are in the bottom. It would be very difficult to snake the aircraft out and very destructive (and possibly dangerous) to remove the beams.
The condition of the aircraft really leaves something to be desired as well. As you can see in the pictures, the forward part of the turtle deck has been crushed. The aft fuselage is badly deteriorated, though the forward part still seems relatively strong. I can’t tell if the area burned or not. The Zeros are all very badly deteriorated. More so than others I saw out there. The tail feathers are missing as are the outer wings. Try as I might, I could not locate them. In the process however I did find a couple of more Zeros. When I found a wing I would follow it inboard. When I found a cockpit attached, I marked down another Zero. I do think I found the wheel pants however, and though I found the front of the cowling as I said I found no engines.
I still have that one nagging question. The same one that kept me from believing it really was a “Claude,” in the first place.
What is it doing there?
Ideas?
James K?
Anyone?
Curtis Block
Sun Aug 19, 2007 11:56 pm
Curtis Block wrote:TBDude (though I think he has inside information) gets extra points for knowing where it is.
Ha.. sort of.. last year a friend showed me the results of a survey that studied corrosion in aluminium aircraft wrecks at Chuuk.
I thought the image looked familiar and guessed that that report must have been where it came from -- so I googled "Chuuk Claude wreck" and found a link to the June 2004 newsletter of something called the "Australasian Institure for Nautical Archaeology." It features an article about a survey expedition to Truk/Chuuk lagoon and (on page 7) reproduces the very same Bill Jeffery photo (complete with a neat caption about where it was taken
)
http://www.aima.iinet.net.au/publicatio ... 3n2y04.pdf
As for what it's doing there... Jeffery speculates that it was meant to train Kamikaze pilots or even for direct use in a suicide mission (but, that doesn't explain the lack of an engine).
Thanks very much for sharing your fascinating impressions and photos of truly unique warbird -- that's just the kind of cool stuff that keeps me surfing onto this site several times a day!
Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:30 am
Curtis Block wrote:I would have loved to have that book out there.
If only I'd known!
As to why it's there, I've no idea either, but I'll do a bit of digging.
Check your PMs
Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:52 am
Wasn't this the type of aircraft for "Tex" Hills first kill?
Mon Aug 20, 2007 7:27 am
Whoa... an honest-to-God A5M4. Great stuff, and you did a fantastic job on shooting the "underwater walkaround"!
It's a tremendous pity there seems to be little chance of retrieving this incredibly rare specimen in order to reverse engineer it.
Lynn
It's a tremendous pity there seems to be little chance of retrieving this incredibly rare specimen in order to reverse engineer it.
Lynn
Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:26 pm
TBDude thanks for linking to that. I guess I was right about the inside information.
I exchanged E-mails with Bill about a year ago. I do seem to remember him mentioning an article concerning our dives. Unfortunately I never saw a copy, and he didn't mention printing anything about the “Claude.” I've read over the article and find it amusing that I unknowingly contributed so much, but where is my name? He must have been taking notes when I wasn't looking (by his own admission he knew nothing about airplanes). I'll have to shoot him another E-mail and give him some hell. Oh well, that's the reason I made a point of crediting the pictures to him. The last thing I would want is to be accused of ripping off some one else's work. After all it was his camera, he was holding it and pressing the button. I would have done it myself, but I doubt any pictures would have come out, or my camera would have ever worked afterward. Besides when working underwater you time on site is extremely limited. Time must be managed well, and tasks split up. Usually we worked in teams of three to four divers.
Curtis Block
I exchanged E-mails with Bill about a year ago. I do seem to remember him mentioning an article concerning our dives. Unfortunately I never saw a copy, and he didn't mention printing anything about the “Claude.” I've read over the article and find it amusing that I unknowingly contributed so much, but where is my name? He must have been taking notes when I wasn't looking (by his own admission he knew nothing about airplanes). I'll have to shoot him another E-mail and give him some hell. Oh well, that's the reason I made a point of crediting the pictures to him. The last thing I would want is to be accused of ripping off some one else's work. After all it was his camera, he was holding it and pressing the button. I would have done it myself, but I doubt any pictures would have come out, or my camera would have ever worked afterward. Besides when working underwater you time on site is extremely limited. Time must be managed well, and tasks split up. Usually we worked in teams of three to four divers.
Curtis Block
Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:57 am
I recently heard from Bill. He has approved the requests for publication of pictures taken on our dives, with my digressions. Parties interested in publishing a story of the A5M4 or these photos, please PM me. I will provide more contact info if needed.
Sun Aug 26, 2007 2:04 pm
Due to requests for more pictures of the other aircraft in the hold, I am posting these photos, also taken by Bill Jeffery. They consist mostly of the Zeros that occupy the same space as the A5M4. As you can see the Zeros have faired much worse over time than the “Claude.” They also give some idea of the general layout of the area, as well as show the mess, which we were working with. Look closely and you can find really interesting things in almost every picture.
Enjoy
Enjoy
Sun Aug 26, 2007 2:37 pm
Wow...you can really see how those spar caps on the Zeros deteriorated (I think they were a magnesium alloy.) Are all those rectangular holes the resulted of "souveniering" by divers?
SN
SN
Sun Aug 26, 2007 4:18 pm
I find it interesting that the Claude doesn't have any instruments in the panel. Since you mention that there is no armamnet nor an engine, what could its purpose been. I thought at first souvenir hunters might be to blame but noticed that the Zeros retained some of there instruments, surely they wouldn't have left any in the aircraft that were that accessible ?
Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:19 pm
One question would be whether the ship was there loading or unloading cargo. If it was loading then these planes could have been sitting around on Truk for years and were being shiped back to Japan as scrap to be melted down and reused. That would also explain the lack of engines. If it was unloading then I've no idea why they would be wasting their time and valuable cargo space on a Claude.
James
James
Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:28 pm
WOW!
I love this thread already!
What a treasure you found there!
I love this thread already!
What a treasure you found there!
Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:37 pm
awesome thread, very interesting.
B
B
Mon Aug 27, 2007 5:34 am
while obsolete by 1944, japan's war resources were extremely thin. they pressed into service anything that functioned toward the war effort, kamikaze, general operations etc, especially kamikaze. that claude should be raised. it's up there in rarity with the devastator, buffalo, etc. definetely 1 of a kind!!
Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:02 am
tom d. friedman wrote:... that claude should be raised.
Ever tried to 'preserve' paper ash? The clear evidence that the stressed skin construction had thinned into holes throughout these aircraft shows that what you'd get would be a fizzing collection of small hard bits, most of the structure just won't make it - much as I agree it would be great to have a Claude. Have a read of Curtis' comments on the other reasons why this is very difficult (to impossible).