I've not posted for a while, but I couldn't let this go by.
Clearly the concept of the 'line book' and the reason for its existence is alien to some.
John-Curtiss Paul wrote:
We are all laughing here at the ignorance of the brilliant record keepers and researchers such as yourselves. Very typical of the type to not believe something happened unless someone records it correctly. Do you really expect the Honduras Gov. to admit getting their Asses shot off? I suppose his six Migs were a figment of his imagination as well. I know exactly who Randy is talking about and Bob told the story of him getting the heck out of there (don't blame him) after the first bullets flew for years before Bob passed away.
Many of us know these real stories..... told from the actual participants. It's just a waste of time sharing them with people who are only interested in stories matching the "paperwork" they read in their "research" of other people's Histories. I could share with you lots of stories R.T. Smith used to tell or Dr. Don Berlin used to tell...... all in our living room over dinner and cocktails.. but Those stories aren't recorded anywhere..so I guess everything they shared with all of us was just in our/their imagination as well.
Speak only for yourself, rather than assuming you are agreed with or supported.
Shooting the breeze over cocktails (an alcoholic stimulant, of course) is where the
real history is? Sure, there's some tales that only come out there, and aren't recorded in the official histories; but that's the exception - the majority are simply good yarns, and should be taken as such.
The history of air combat as told after cocktails by fighter pilots would be interesting, but hardly definitive. There's a lot more to it than the guy at the pole necessarily knows, and a fighter pilot's job is to fight, while a historian's is to try and understand history. Demanding anyone follow your orthodoxy is a clear indicator of not being on secure ground.
I don't think anyone's 'disrespecting' Bob Love, but
your need to put him on a pedestal on the basis of round-the-fire tales does him a disservice and also to yourself. It's telling that apart from demanding that everyone take your recollection of Bob's story at face value, you've failed to provide a single scrap of evidence and resorted to name calling.
Frankly, I doubt even you do business on the basis of someone being entirely trustworthy and 'the real deal' when the evidence (absent and present) points entirely the other way.
John-Curtiss Paul wrote:
As a matter of fact Bob said he went down there because he wanted an "even dozen" in what he called "The Sport of Kings". He already had 6 kills in Korea when he went down there and his motivation was not the money. He was one of the best mustang pilots ever and an F-86 ace to boot...... he wanted the action. Those who knew Bob know that he was the real deal no bull-**** fighter pilot....
He may be a great pilot, and a great pilot for his country, but when he decided to fly as a mercenary, he put himself outside many people's idea of acceptable behaviour.
A mercenary pilot is someone who accepts money to shoot down aircraft for a country other than his own, and most probably to kill for cash. There are times when it is justified to fight for a worthy cause, but, by your statement here, this is clearly not one of those. Bob Love's combat career in US service is creditable; people may find his being a gun for hire a hero, but that's not one that's universally accepted, in this case I believe it reprehensible, as he was just looking to increase his tally - which if he had wouldn't be that of a (creditable) serving US airman anyway.
As to "because he wanted an "even dozen" in what he called "The Sport of Kings"." - AFAIK, there's never been a Royal who flew as a fighter pilot, and while it lightens an unpleasant (but often necessary) duty to refer to the job as 'sport' it indicates a shortfall in understanding.
Jack Cook wrote:
Quote:
but if in fact Capt. Robert J. Love ever made such claim, I can only think he was manipulating facts, which needless to say, is morally incorrect, dishonest
That statement is pure bull! Many pilots have overclaimed in the history of air-to-air combat. That doesn't in any way make them immoral. The fact is you weren't there and didn't know Bob Love so you're in no position to judge the man in such a way. Bob's aviation achievements and adventures are things you can only dream of and imagine. He was a truly fine man, a great pilot and a real gentlemen. I believe Bob Hoover said that Bob Love was the finest Mustang pilot ever....period!
To take some hangar flying as either gospel truth or immoral is silly, as are some of the responses here.
We all 'judge' each and every day; the good thing is we can't force our view to be accepted; that way is totalitarian. We are entitled to an opinion on the matter; some believe an opinion based on evidence worth respecting, others that someone's characters is a good guide - I find it interesting that there's a clear conflict of character and fact.
If there's no evidence for something, where there should be (such as lost aircraft, bounties claimed and paid, and kills written up by the victors) there it's justifiable to ask for that evidence. The participant's character and previous record are relevant but don't outweigh the howling silence of the lack of proof.
As to 'over-claiming in combat' as Jack knows, that's indeed common; but in a situation where opposing forces didn't even see each other, and when a pilot's on a bounty, that's a quite different case, than mistakes in a
melee.
The
sturm und drang posts demanding that all bow before Bob's prowess are thankfully risible, rather than dangerous, but it was to stop that kind of ersatz history of the powerful over the weak that W.W.II was fought. It's doubtful Bob would find the demands on his behalf useful.
Feel free to prove the story; abuse or demands for respect (which is earned, not demanded) will be taken as a lack of more solid arguments. I have no idea what happened, but I do know who is convincing and who isn't, here, so far.
Regards,
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