P-51 Mustang Crash at Camarillo Airport - July 2007

[mlenoch]

The only problem with all of that is that you need to check and re-adjust the gear warning horn as it is supposed to be set to sound at 20" and below. 22" may not sound the warning horn as evident on more that one ossasion!

Glenn

That is a correct concern. Discussions with Lee have identified 22" as the lowest power setting to use in the pattern in order to protect the engine. Thus, if the warning horn is set to go off at 20", one might be doing a go-around at last possible second prior to touchdown.
I teach my 51-newbies that after their 8th GUMP check, they are ready to land. Hopefully, this will back up the horn as well.
VL

[skydaddy61]

Why is insurance mandatory? A good idea, of course, but how can you enforce it?

[Chicoartist]

As for WWII training, as one example the 4th FG in the ETO converted to the Mustang in late February 44 after flying P-47s for nearly a year, and Spits before that.

Young Donald Emerson (later KIA on Dec 25, 44 as the 336 FS ops officer) arrived at Debden just after the conversion to 51s. In the wonderful book Donald's Story, written by his neice Sandy Merrill, and available easily on eBay, etc., Emerson makes the comment in a letter home (paraphrased) that, "This group flies the plane (Mustang) I have been flying, and even the old hands are quizzing me on it since I have so much time in it." As outlined in Donald's Story, at the time he went through training in the US system, Emerson received a very thorough course in the P-51 in Florida, I believe, and was fully prepared to fly the P-51. Even though the latter was true, all 4th FG pilots were made to complete a short "combat course" run by the 334 FS concentrating on ETO combat techniques and 4th FG-specific procedures before being turned loose on a mission.

Of course, as outlined in numerous places, the pilots already at Debden at the time of the conversion pretty much "learned to fly them on the way to the targets". What actually happened, as outlined in logbooks I have copies of and as explained in the Operational Diaries of all three squadrons is that each early P-51 mission pilot had about an hour or more (several flights each) before being turned loose on a combat sortie. In addition, early P-51 mission slots' priority was given to those pilots who had Spitfire experience. Many at DB at that time were ex-Eagles and/or had Spit time.

In addition, there were more than a few mandatory pilot "skull sessions" with actual North American Tech Reps and other experienced Mustang pilots and experts in the DB briefing rooms concerning procedures, etc. Yes, much less than their US-trained Mustang conterparts, but contrary to myth they took a very professional and careful attitude towards the P-51 conversion under the conditions they operating under.

FYI,

Wade

Last edited by Chicoartist on Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

[Mike]

Why is insurance mandatory? A good idea, of course, but how can you enforce it?

As has been stated before, third party liability insurance is mandatory (and enforced), hull insurance is generally at the owner's discretion.

[Matt Gunsch]

Why is insurance mandatory? A good idea, of course, but how can you enforce it?

As has been stated before, third party liability insurance is mandatory (and enforced), hull insurance is generally at the owner's discretion.

where is this written ? what law ? I am a IA, and I am not required to check for insurance when doing a annual. It is entirally up to the owner. The only time it is not is if there is a note holder on the AC.

[skybolt2003]

Insurance isn't mandatory. But if you have enough money to own a Mustang, or most any other interesting airplane, you are certainly going to want liability. I took away from Deacon comment that what he meant was, these planes are currently worth so much money, you'd be nuts not to have hull too. I know people who have 'fleets' of planes, and the expertise to rebuild them that don't carry hull. They bet that they won't wreck many and the money they save will cover the ones they do. Of course, one hurricane or large hangar fire could wipe them out.

[Bill Greenwood]

I recently noticed something about doing landing checklist. You do it so many times without a problem that it becomes 2nd nature and almost taken for granted. I do my last basic check on short final, looking for the green light inside the cockpit. Turning final in the show at Geneseo, like a parrot I said "Gear down green" as I looked inside. My mind was half on the descent path to clear the trees; finally I realize there are no green lights, no lights at all. It took a second or so to come out of robot mode and add power to go around. I then raised the gear on downwind, then no up light either. The air boss says the gear looked down as I went by so I can resonalbly guess that it is an electric light problem rather than a problem in the gear hydraulic circuit. I lowered it again, checked the external indicators on the wings, and made a careful and very good landing, all the while sor tof holding my breath. One other thing I try to do is focus on GEAR! Those other items on the list may be needed, but the gear is the only one you can't do without, at least and still taxi up to the bar.

[bdk]

Of course, one hurricane or large hangar fire could wipe them out.

Buy ground hull insurance.

[skybolt2003]

Of course, one hurricane or large hangar fire could wipe them out.

Buy ground hull insurance.

not in motion

some policies allow you to suspend complete hull insurance for not in motion for part of the year. if you live in a part of the country with harsh winters and don't flyfor 3 months of the year for example.

[Jack Cook]

Talking about checkouts. My dear friend Cy Gladen flew in the 44th FS in the Solomans in WWII. When they transitioned to P-38Hs at Oua Tom, NC in Nov 1943 his check out consisted of 1 trip around the patch in the back of a UC-78 with a Sgt pilot who could only tell them how good they had it has officers. Has Cy climbed into a P-38 the crew yelled at him not to do anything stupid. 1.5 hours later he was leading a flight of 4 38s escorting B-25s over Rabaul.

[Baldeagle]

Why is insurance mandatory? A good idea, of course, but how can you enforce it?

As has been stated before, third party liability insurance is mandatory (and enforced), hull insurance is generally at the owner's discretion.

The state of Virginia requires liablity insurance on aircraft registered in VA (you fill out a state tax form and have to provide insurance information), but I've never heard of them checking anyone for it. I suppose that if you had an incident they might check....

[Lynn Allen]

Talking about checkouts. My dear friend Cy Gladen flew in the 44th FS in the Solomans in WWII. When they transitioned to P-38Hs at Oua Tom, NC in Nov 1943 his check out consisted of 1 trip around the patch in the back of a UC-78 with a Sgt pilot who could only tell them how good they had it has officers. Has Cy climbed into a P-38 the crew yelled at him not to do anything stupid. 1.5 hours later he was leading a flight of 4 38s escorting B-25s over Rabaul.

Jack Hart told me once that he landed at a British base and there were some P-38's parked there and he wanted to fly one. The gent told him where all the controls were and gave him a pat on the head and gave him his best wishes and away he went. Short and sweet...

Lynn

[Glenn Wegman]

Lynn, Jack,

They could do that back then because they didn't learn to fly in single engine Cessna's etc. They learned to fly and soloed in real airplanes!

[sdennison]

As I may have said before, my Dad's check out in the P-47 was a cockpit instrument "location" test with his eyes blindfolded, a pat on the a$$, and then "go fly son".

Different times. He was then also expected to fly anything. "You're a pilot, right?"

[Jack Cook]

They could do that back then because they didn't learn to fly in single engine Cessna's etc. They learned to fly and soloed in real airplanes!

True Glenn, but these guys really took a pasting at Rabaul. After Cy and most of the high time combat guys left in early Jan. The 44th had low combat time leaders with no P-38 time and replacements from the P-38 pipeline at Williams Field with no combat experience. This was a very bad combination. In 2 mission over Rabaul 17-18 Jan 1944 they lost 7 KIA/MIA (inc. 14 kill ace CB Head), 3 WIA and 4 other P-38s damaged so bad they were scrapped. The 339th FS flying with them also took a pasting.