Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:19 pm
My apologies to all, for another “extended” posting.
No disrespect to his memory, but if in fact Capt. Robert J. Love ever made such claim, I can only think he was manipulating facts, which needless to say, is morally incorrect, dishonest. The only three Corsairs known to have been shot down during the July 1969 war were Salvadoran: a single FG-1D on July 15 (by “friendly fire”), and two FG-1Ds (by FAH Capt. Fernando Soto) on July 17.
Of nineteen Vought Corsairs acquired by the Honduran Air Force (1956-1961), two are located at the Honduras Air Museum in Tegucigalpa (FAH 609, F4U-5N, BuNo. 124715, and the center section and wings of FAH 617, F4U-4, BuNo. 97059); the remaining seventeen (17) Corsairs were either flown or shipped to the USA.
Although only eleven Corsairs were serviceable during the short war, El Salvador claimed to have downed twenty five Honduran Corsairs (an outrageous morale booster evidently). Actually, no Honduran aircraft were shot down before, during or after the war.
The fact that all nineteen Corsairs can be accounted for, with photographic and documentary evidence that can be vouched by prominent and highly reputed USA historians and researchers is satisfactory by any standard. But of course, it is anyone’s privilege, for whatever reasons, to discredit such hard evidence in favor of a by-word-of-mouth tale that cannot be confirmed by anyone, except for those who listened.
Insulting those who disagree with you, tells a lot about your personality (as well as being arrogant), and the fact that you have to be offensive to prove yourself, means that your arguments are insufficient, and perhaps, untrue.
It is not a matter of “matching paperwork”, or the sort, it is only a matter of putting some factual evidence on the table! But if you lack such evidence, your rant is understandable.
I've heard so many tales about these mercenaries, but have never seen factual evidence on their "combat exploits". Some years ago, Air Classics published the devious story, "The Mustang's Last Stand Over Honduras", which deserves no comment whatsoever, and was written by a mercenary who didn't even have the courage to print his name. And the Editor’s Note is significant by all means: "Although this story reads more like adventure fiction than fact, every word of it is true". Holy cow! I still wonder what made the editor believe every word to be true; and that, we may never know. Needless to say, the story is a fraud. But we all know stories sell books, magazines, newspapers, etc. and sales mean business, so what’s wrong with making a few bucks?
Missed opportunities? In the morning of July 18, a Honduran Air Force C-47 and five Corsairs were sent to bomb and strafe Salvadoran troops positioned less than a mile inside Honduran territory. The attack was made in broad daylight and in plain view of the Salvadoran command and control post located near the El Amatillo customs building. This post was equipped with UHF/VHF equipment which allowed them to contact land and air units, including the FAS Madresal airfield, located at a mere 52 or 53 nautical miles from El Amatillo. This was the base where two or three mercenaries flying Cavaliers were stationed during the day.
Even so, no enemy aircraft showed up in support of the Salvadoran troops, or even later in the day. Or just to shoot down Corsairs for that matter!
Furthermore, since mid-day of July 17 and until the July 18, 10:00 pm cease-fire, no enemy aircraft were reported near the entire common border allowing the Honduran Air Force to patrol the border, strafe and bomb enemy positions inside Honduran territory, quite undisturbed. So, where were the mercenaries?
The OAS-proposed cease-fire accepted and countersigned by Honduras-El Salvador, ordered both air forces to refrain flying near the border, among other restrictions applied to land forces. Honduras strictly grounded all combat aircraft and no recon flights were even made during the following weeks. On July 21, Salvadoran combat and transport aircraft were observed flying near the border and in the vicinity of the occupied town of Ocotepeque (about 4-5 miles from the Salvadoran border). There were several reports prepared by OAS military observers to that effect, but thanks to efforts made by the USA, the OAS was “convinced” not to vote in favor of the application of the Treaty of Rio against El Salvador, in lieu of constant violations of the cease-fire. But one has to read the whole story to understand this matter.
But surely enough, with no opposition from Honduran fighters, with at least seven “fresh” mercenaries and recently acquired Mustangs, the “refurbished” FAS could again fly the pre-war “friendly skies”. So … why not make up some air-to air encounters, “down” a couple of Honduran Corsairs, or whatever?
I hate to say this, but while these mercenaries were motivated by money, comfort and “other” known eccentricities they imposed upon the Salvadoran government, FAH pilots were motivated by their training, their own survival and their love of country. That incentive that drive can make the difference between victory and defeat, and History has a number of lessons to learn from since WW2. So I better let it rest there.
Learning is acquired by reading books, but the much more necessary learning, the knowledge of the world, is only to be acquired by reading men, and studying all the various facets of them.
Lord Chesterfield (1694-1773) British statesman.
There are only two kinds of people who are really fascinating --people who know absolutely everything, and people who know absolutely nothing.
Oscar Wilde (1854-1900) Irish poet and dramatist.
John-Curtiss Paul wrote:The late, great Bob Love was another of those Mercenary Pilots. He shot down 3 Corsairs if memory serves me correctly.
No disrespect to his memory, but if in fact Capt. Robert J. Love ever made such claim, I can only think he was manipulating facts, which needless to say, is morally incorrect, dishonest. The only three Corsairs known to have been shot down during the July 1969 war were Salvadoran: a single FG-1D on July 15 (by “friendly fire”), and two FG-1Ds (by FAH Capt. Fernando Soto) on July 17.
Of nineteen Vought Corsairs acquired by the Honduran Air Force (1956-1961), two are located at the Honduras Air Museum in Tegucigalpa (FAH 609, F4U-5N, BuNo. 124715, and the center section and wings of FAH 617, F4U-4, BuNo. 97059); the remaining seventeen (17) Corsairs were either flown or shipped to the USA.
Although only eleven Corsairs were serviceable during the short war, El Salvador claimed to have downed twenty five Honduran Corsairs (an outrageous morale booster evidently). Actually, no Honduran aircraft were shot down before, during or after the war.
The fact that all nineteen Corsairs can be accounted for, with photographic and documentary evidence that can be vouched by prominent and highly reputed USA historians and researchers is satisfactory by any standard. But of course, it is anyone’s privilege, for whatever reasons, to discredit such hard evidence in favor of a by-word-of-mouth tale that cannot be confirmed by anyone, except for those who listened.
Insulting those who disagree with you, tells a lot about your personality (as well as being arrogant), and the fact that you have to be offensive to prove yourself, means that your arguments are insufficient, and perhaps, untrue.
It is not a matter of “matching paperwork”, or the sort, it is only a matter of putting some factual evidence on the table! But if you lack such evidence, your rant is understandable.
I've heard so many tales about these mercenaries, but have never seen factual evidence on their "combat exploits". Some years ago, Air Classics published the devious story, "The Mustang's Last Stand Over Honduras", which deserves no comment whatsoever, and was written by a mercenary who didn't even have the courage to print his name. And the Editor’s Note is significant by all means: "Although this story reads more like adventure fiction than fact, every word of it is true". Holy cow! I still wonder what made the editor believe every word to be true; and that, we may never know. Needless to say, the story is a fraud. But we all know stories sell books, magazines, newspapers, etc. and sales mean business, so what’s wrong with making a few bucks?
Missed opportunities? In the morning of July 18, a Honduran Air Force C-47 and five Corsairs were sent to bomb and strafe Salvadoran troops positioned less than a mile inside Honduran territory. The attack was made in broad daylight and in plain view of the Salvadoran command and control post located near the El Amatillo customs building. This post was equipped with UHF/VHF equipment which allowed them to contact land and air units, including the FAS Madresal airfield, located at a mere 52 or 53 nautical miles from El Amatillo. This was the base where two or three mercenaries flying Cavaliers were stationed during the day.
Even so, no enemy aircraft showed up in support of the Salvadoran troops, or even later in the day. Or just to shoot down Corsairs for that matter!
Furthermore, since mid-day of July 17 and until the July 18, 10:00 pm cease-fire, no enemy aircraft were reported near the entire common border allowing the Honduran Air Force to patrol the border, strafe and bomb enemy positions inside Honduran territory, quite undisturbed. So, where were the mercenaries?
The OAS-proposed cease-fire accepted and countersigned by Honduras-El Salvador, ordered both air forces to refrain flying near the border, among other restrictions applied to land forces. Honduras strictly grounded all combat aircraft and no recon flights were even made during the following weeks. On July 21, Salvadoran combat and transport aircraft were observed flying near the border and in the vicinity of the occupied town of Ocotepeque (about 4-5 miles from the Salvadoran border). There were several reports prepared by OAS military observers to that effect, but thanks to efforts made by the USA, the OAS was “convinced” not to vote in favor of the application of the Treaty of Rio against El Salvador, in lieu of constant violations of the cease-fire. But one has to read the whole story to understand this matter.
But surely enough, with no opposition from Honduran fighters, with at least seven “fresh” mercenaries and recently acquired Mustangs, the “refurbished” FAS could again fly the pre-war “friendly skies”. So … why not make up some air-to air encounters, “down” a couple of Honduran Corsairs, or whatever?
I hate to say this, but while these mercenaries were motivated by money, comfort and “other” known eccentricities they imposed upon the Salvadoran government, FAH pilots were motivated by their training, their own survival and their love of country. That incentive that drive can make the difference between victory and defeat, and History has a number of lessons to learn from since WW2. So I better let it rest there.
Learning is acquired by reading books, but the much more necessary learning, the knowledge of the world, is only to be acquired by reading men, and studying all the various facets of them.
Lord Chesterfield (1694-1773) British statesman.
There are only two kinds of people who are really fascinating --people who know absolutely everything, and people who know absolutely nothing.
Oscar Wilde (1854-1900) Irish poet and dramatist.
Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:24 pm
As Bob would say... you are a weenie. Read your books and "records" that the desk jockey's kept so people like yourself can read them at home years later and feel they are somehow involved or attached to history in a personal way.. you are not. Some of us lucky few still get to hear it from the horses mouth. You just disrespected a man that no other person that knows his ass from a hole in the ground in the field of military and or air race aviation would ever bad mouth. Oh well. Weenies are everywhere in this business.
Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:13 am
John, please dial it down. You have no idea who most of us are. And please, for those of use who don't have any other way of explaining it, please respond to the fact that the numbers that are commonly accepted and your numbers don't match. You also never responded to this:
http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/america ... af-F4U.htm
This is an interesting thread.
Randy, I want a copy.
http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/america ... af-F4U.htm
This is an interesting thread.
Randy, I want a copy.
Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:14 am
Is it really necessary to drag this into a name-calling fight?
Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:26 am
Randy Haskin wrote:Is it really necessary to drag this into a name-calling fight?
Yes.
you Turkey Pilot!
How long before I can get my hands on your book?
Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:31 am
I thought the Turkey was the F-14? I would have expected something more like "Mud Hen" or "Family Model Eagle". Maybe "twice the people and half the situational awareness"...at least that's what the F-16 and F-15C guys seem to think.
My book is a lot like a homebuilt airplane -- 80% done with 80% still to go.
Since the book-writing is just a hobby, it has had to take a back seat to my real life, which has included being deployed for 9 of the last 12 months. I'm currently in Afghanistan, which as you might imagine, makes it a little difficult to finish working on a book when it is a part-time hobbyist affair. I'm only a 'serious historian' when Uncle Sam lets me have some free time.
I had initially intended for the book to be published and released at the Mustang Gathering, but I sadly realized earlier this year that I wasn't going to be able to make that deadline.
My hope is to finish it up in 2008.
My book is a lot like a homebuilt airplane -- 80% done with 80% still to go.
Since the book-writing is just a hobby, it has had to take a back seat to my real life, which has included being deployed for 9 of the last 12 months. I'm currently in Afghanistan, which as you might imagine, makes it a little difficult to finish working on a book when it is a part-time hobbyist affair. I'm only a 'serious historian' when Uncle Sam lets me have some free time.
I had initially intended for the book to be published and released at the Mustang Gathering, but I sadly realized earlier this year that I wasn't going to be able to make that deadline.
My hope is to finish it up in 2008.
Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:17 am
"Weenie" is an inside joke......
Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:43 pm
Swiss Mustangs wrote:mornin' everyone....
this one:
is a survivor:
http://www.warbirdregistry.org/corsairr ... 92629.html
Martin
I remember when this one came up to San Antonio when Douglas Bader came to town and it just arrived from way down south.
Lynn
???
Sun Jul 29, 2007 1:20 am
but if in fact Capt. Robert J. Love ever made such claim, I can only think he was manipulating facts, which needless to say, is morally incorrect, dishonest
That statement is pure bull! Many pilots have overclaimed in the history of air-to-air combat. That doesn't in any way make them immoral. The fact is you weren't there and didn't know Bob Love so you're in no position to judge the man in such a way. Bob's aviation achievements and adventures are things you can only dream of and imagine. He was a truly fine man, a great pilot and a real gentlemen. I believe Bob Hoover said that Bob Love was the finest Mustang pilot ever....period!
Re: ???
Sun Jul 29, 2007 2:52 am
Jack Cook wrote:but if in fact Capt. Robert J. Love ever made such claim, I can only think he was manipulating facts, which needless to say, is morally incorrect, dishonest
That statement is pure bull! Many pilots have overclaimed in the history of air-to-air combat. That doesn't in any way make them immoral. The fact is you weren't there and didn't know Bob Love so you're in no position to judge the man in such a way. Bob's aviation achievements and adventures are things you can only dream of and imagine. He was a truly fine man, a great pilot and a real gentlemen. I believe Bob Hoover said that Bob Love was the finest Mustang pilot ever....period!
Being a decorated combat veteran in no way - ever - makes an individual above reproach. It makes you a normal man who achieved extraordinary things during extraordinary times.
Love was by all accounts a magnificent pilot and had some extraordinary achievements in combat in Korea. Nobody's comments here or elsewhere can ever take away or diminish that fact. But....let's not get carried away with the halo effect.
I do think it's a stretch to jump from a re-telling of a hangar-flyin' story to accusing the man of being morally corrupt. These are two opposite ends of the spectrum as far as I'm concerned. Those of us who have never lied or stretched the truth can cast the first stone, though. I know I won't be anywhere in that line.
Jack, you're right that pilots have made incorrect combat claims since the beginning of aerial combat. How events are perceived from the cockpit during a time of stress can often differ from how they were seen from the ground or even from a different aircraft. I can attest that this happens currently, too. I have personally had many occasions where I thought one thing happened during an aerial engagement, but upon videotape review after the sortie, that is NOT what happened.
Some combat pilots made these claims completely genuinely, and when they were false it was due to a perception error. Some pilots I'm sure made disingenuous kill claims as well. I can't say what the situation is here... I'm certainly not making any assault on Love's character -- I never heard him make a claim of Corsair kills in El Salvador, nor have I ever read that he made that claim (except here). I'm simply saying that in all the research I have done on this topic, I've personally not seen any evidence that he (or any other FAS pilot or contract pilot) shot down any Honduran Corsairs during July 1969.
Since neither Mr Paul or I were involved in the Soccer War, then we can only rely on the 2ndhand information we've been provided, either be it written or verbal. In this case, his source and mine differ in their telling of the events.
This isn't the first time that sources have differed in how they re-tell history after the fact, and it won't be the last.
It's simply up to all of us to take ALL of the evidence into consideration and come to our own individual conclusions.
Last edited by Randy Haskin on Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:55 am
Randy Haskin wrote:I thought the Turkey was the F-14? I would have expected something more like "Mud Hen" or "Family Model Eagle". Maybe "twice the people and half the situational awareness"...at least that's what the F-16 and F-15C guys seem to think.
My book is a lot like a homebuilt airplane -- 80% done with 80% still to go.
.
Honestly all I really know is snakes and slats, so forgive me for mis-insulting you
Next time I'll refer to clean sheets and air conditioning 
I know the deployment thing, Randy. Your either focused on the thing or trying to decompress. I should have remembered that personal life isn't a constitutional right
I'll just sit on my hands until you let us know your done!
Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:57 am
Lynn Allen wrote:
I remember when this one came up to San Antonio when Douglas Bader came to town and it just arrived from way down south.
Lynn
Golden Meadow?
Re: ???
Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:41 am
[quote="Randy Haskin"]Being a decorated combat veteran in no way - ever - makes an individual above reproach. It makes you a normal man who achieved extraordinary things during extraordinary times.
I'm certainly not making any assault on Love's character -- I never heard him make a claim of Corsair kills in El Salvador, nor have I ever read that he made that claim (except here). I'm simply saying that in all the research I have done on this topic, I've personally not seen any evidence that he shot down any Honduran Corsairs during July 1969.
Exactly!
Jack Cook wrote:
That statement is pure bull!
I don't see the reason for such a fuss over a statement that is very clear and very simple: I said (and the post is there to see): "but IF in fact...". Webster's dictionary says: (if) conj. "in the event that ...". That is not an affirmation, or is it? If in fact it is, then I'll have to study English grammar, once again.
As far as I'm concerned, this case does not deserve my attention anymore, unless of course, there is a video or audio tape with the late Capt. Love claiming three (or whatever number) Honduran Corsairs, in which case, my statement would be quite different.
Cheers to all.
I'm certainly not making any assault on Love's character -- I never heard him make a claim of Corsair kills in El Salvador, nor have I ever read that he made that claim (except here). I'm simply saying that in all the research I have done on this topic, I've personally not seen any evidence that he shot down any Honduran Corsairs during July 1969.
Exactly!
Jack Cook wrote:
That statement is pure bull!
I don't see the reason for such a fuss over a statement that is very clear and very simple: I said (and the post is there to see): "but IF in fact...". Webster's dictionary says: (if) conj. "in the event that ...". That is not an affirmation, or is it? If in fact it is, then I'll have to study English grammar, once again.
As far as I'm concerned, this case does not deserve my attention anymore, unless of course, there is a video or audio tape with the late Capt. Love claiming three (or whatever number) Honduran Corsairs, in which case, my statement would be quite different.
Cheers to all.
Re: ???
Sun Jul 29, 2007 9:35 am
AAF wrote:As far as I'm concerned, this case does not deserve my attention anymore, unless of course, there is a video or audio tape with the late Capt. Love claiming three (or whatever number) Honduran Corsairs, in which case, my statement would be quite different.
Cheers to all.
So now you've gone from saying Bob Love was lying to saying John-Curtiss is lying about having heard him say this? At least that's what it sounds like to me.
Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:11 am
"Senator it all depends on what your definition of "if" is. I have no recollection of that event or of that woman Miss Lewinski ever falling to her knees"