Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:34 pm
Dave Fish wrote:From this morning's Ventura County Star...
Pilot killed in crash is identified
Oaks Christian coach died while landing vintage plane
By Adam Foxman (Contact)
Tuesday, July 17, 2007
Thanks, Dave. Mr Foxman is to be commended for the article. It avoids sensationalizing the event, and provides context from people who know what they're talking about.
Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:48 pm
Dave Fish wrote:From this morning's Ventura County Star...
Of the 290 fatal incidents that have involved general aviation in California during the past decade, only two were related to vintage planes, according to a National Transportation Safety Board database.
That can't be right, what am I missing here?
Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:16 pm
I can only guess, but I think what he was trying to say was, according to the NTSB, "vintage" (I would also guess this includes restored warbirds) aircraft are safe to fly and very rarely crash.
Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:58 pm
I was just reading the Sanders article in the current WD and was surprised to read that Mckittrick had a Sea Fury being restored at Sanders as well.
John
John
Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:21 pm
After posting a message to AWON about the crash, I received the below from the son of a 361st Fighter Group pilot who was KIA on the same misson that the original Lou IV was lost:
The P-51 that went down was Lou IV. It was the same plane that I got a ride in when I went to the 361st Fighter Group Reunion in 1999 in Ft. Walton Beach, Fl. It was formerly owned by Chuck Greenhill who had recently sold it.
The original Lou IV was lost August 12, 1944 on a dive bombing mission. It was flown by Lt. Col. Thomas J. Christian, who was leading the mission. It was named for his infant daughter Lou. Col. Christian was the grandson of Stonewall Jackson. Lou Christian Loving is one of the only other orphans of the 361st Fighter Group.
My father was killed about 20 minuites after Col. Christian on the same mission. Conincidentally, my father was flying P-51B 42-106942. It was the former plane of Col. Christian and was named Lou II while Col. Christian was flying it.
Thanks for the tip. I have passed the information on to the remaining members of the 361st Fighter Group Assoiciation.
Joseph Ormond
Son of 1st. Lt. Clarence Zieske
KIA August 12, 1944
361st Fighter Group, 374th Fighter Squadron
The P-51 that went down was Lou IV. It was the same plane that I got a ride in when I went to the 361st Fighter Group Reunion in 1999 in Ft. Walton Beach, Fl. It was formerly owned by Chuck Greenhill who had recently sold it.
The original Lou IV was lost August 12, 1944 on a dive bombing mission. It was flown by Lt. Col. Thomas J. Christian, who was leading the mission. It was named for his infant daughter Lou. Col. Christian was the grandson of Stonewall Jackson. Lou Christian Loving is one of the only other orphans of the 361st Fighter Group.
My father was killed about 20 minuites after Col. Christian on the same mission. Conincidentally, my father was flying P-51B 42-106942. It was the former plane of Col. Christian and was named Lou II while Col. Christian was flying it.
Thanks for the tip. I have passed the information on to the remaining members of the 361st Fighter Group Assoiciation.
Joseph Ormond
Son of 1st. Lt. Clarence Zieske
KIA August 12, 1944
361st Fighter Group, 374th Fighter Squadron
Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:35 pm
One must also consider how awful it must have been for the instructor to watch this happen to his student on his first solo flight. Regardless of whether this was a "freak accident" or not, every instructor that has had a student crash or even get lost on a cross country must wonder what more he/she could have done to prevent the incident. My heart goes out to the instructor as well.
Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:48 pm
I agree...obviously, as an instructor, Mr. McKittrick was "under his wing." Can you imagine his horror as he watched this event take place?
Up to this point, the instructor's identity has not been disclosed by the local media and I would guess that he would like to keep it that way, for at least a while.
Up to this point, the instructor's identity has not been disclosed by the local media and I would guess that he would like to keep it that way, for at least a while.
Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:05 pm
I don't know the source or how accurate he is, but it was posted on this story's Ventura County Star Blog:
you are speaking out of turn here, ecarson, with out knowing all the facts. this pilot had the best instructor a p51 pilot could have, it takes a special person to be able to even give instruction in these difficult to fly and sensitive warbirds. he has at least 30 yrs experience with p51's. he was being thoughtful and considerate of the public (on the ground) as you mentioned as well. Camarillo is relatively sparse and has lots of room for training. furthermore, he (Mckittrick) was given orders to stay in the pattern and do one circuit to a full stop. no leaving the pattern. the student had over 37 hrs dual instruction (in this plane!) at this point and had not shown any bad tendancies. the problem is, you cannot always predict what a students response with be to any mistake he may make. you can only hope they use good common sense as well as their acquired skills to correct it. sometimes it leads to an unfortunate event such as this, and unless you know exactly what happened you should not be so quick to criticise. i have had similar experiences with students in specilized aircraft and thousands of dual given with a tally of more 10,000hrs in odd types or non-conventional planes. this instructor was actually being very cautious in this instance and knows the plane and pilot well. none of us have a crystal ball and we all feel very bad when it comes to this end. there is no sense in inciting people's negative opinions when you don't know of what you speak.
you are speaking out of turn here, ecarson, with out knowing all the facts. this pilot had the best instructor a p51 pilot could have, it takes a special person to be able to even give instruction in these difficult to fly and sensitive warbirds. he has at least 30 yrs experience with p51's. he was being thoughtful and considerate of the public (on the ground) as you mentioned as well. Camarillo is relatively sparse and has lots of room for training. furthermore, he (Mckittrick) was given orders to stay in the pattern and do one circuit to a full stop. no leaving the pattern. the student had over 37 hrs dual instruction (in this plane!) at this point and had not shown any bad tendancies. the problem is, you cannot always predict what a students response with be to any mistake he may make. you can only hope they use good common sense as well as their acquired skills to correct it. sometimes it leads to an unfortunate event such as this, and unless you know exactly what happened you should not be so quick to criticise. i have had similar experiences with students in specilized aircraft and thousands of dual given with a tally of more 10,000hrs in odd types or non-conventional planes. this instructor was actually being very cautious in this instance and knows the plane and pilot well. none of us have a crystal ball and we all feel very bad when it comes to this end. there is no sense in inciting people's negative opinions when you don't know of what you speak.
??
Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:41 pm
Here's Col Christian in the original.
Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:03 pm
steve i apologize if i offended you. it was only an opinion from a non pilot. maybe i should have not even posted a reply. anyway, my heart is always in the right place. please take my comment as it was intended. best, tom
Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:17 pm
wow........ i just scrolled back on this thread to knock off a few minutes ,& i never realized i pissed off so many people. my humblest apologies to all on the forum. i guess as a ground pounder i was in no position to comment, sometimes we all over step our bounderies. i guess this was my time. again, i'm sorry for any ill feelings that any members may have taken from my 1st comment re: this thread.
Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:20 pm
Not a problem Tom, just an error in judgement, It also happened to a P-51 pilot at Camarillo Airport last weekend.
Steve
Steve
Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:24 pm
God Speed
To the P-51 drivers out there: does the pax inthe back seat affect CG much? That transition may have changed the flight charateristics enough to place him out of his usual routine.
To the P-51 drivers out there: does the pax inthe back seat affect CG much? That transition may have changed the flight charateristics enough to place him out of his usual routine.
Re: ??
Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:56 pm
Jack Cook wrote:Here's Col Christian in the original.
Jack,
You are absolutely amazing!
I provided Joseph Ormond a link to this WIX Thread, with the thought in mind that he could share our comments with the surviving members of the 361st Fighter Group.
Thanks!
Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:01 pm
Tom Friedman wrote:
Tom,
Kudos to you for this follow up. I have alot of respect for anyone who is obviously as sincere as you are with the post above.
By the way, the "instructor" was Matt Jackson, you couldn't ask for any one better to do this instruction. He was even able to get Tom Cruise flying his Mustang. Few have the instruction background and the Mustang experience that Matt has. I also feel bad for him.
wow........ i just scrolled back on this thread to knock off a few minutes ,& i never realized i pissed off so many people. my humblest apologies to all on the forum. i guess as a ground pounder i was in no position to comment, sometimes we all over step our bounderies. i guess this was my time. again, i'm sorry for any ill feelings that any members may have taken from my 1st comment re: this thread.
Tom,
Kudos to you for this follow up. I have alot of respect for anyone who is obviously as sincere as you are with the post above.
By the way, the "instructor" was Matt Jackson, you couldn't ask for any one better to do this instruction. He was even able to get Tom Cruise flying his Mustang. Few have the instruction background and the Mustang experience that Matt has. I also feel bad for him.