Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:35 pm
Randy Haskin wrote:Obergrafeter wrote:If a man can fly a T-6 then he is ready for a Mustang. Sometimes the stars align just wrong for somebody. No ones fault, just the hand that is dealt that day.
I've had several people tell me that in order to get ready to fly the T-6, you should fly the Mustang...
With the little time I have in Mustangs, getting ready for a T6
Lynn
51' incident
Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:52 pm
Top News
P-51D Mustang Down In California
Mon, 16 Jul '07
Pilot Lost In Takeoff And Landing Drills
ANN REALTIME UPDATE 07.16.07 1720 EDT: Officials have released the name of the pilot of a P-51D Mustang who died in a Sunday morning accident at Camarillo Airport.
John McKittrick, 42, was at the controls when the warbird crashed at 0815 PDT Sunday morning. Sources tell ANN McKittrick had "several hundred" flight hours in other types of aircraft, though this was his first time soloing the P-51.
Eyewitnesses tell ANN the accident occurred during McKittrick's first landing attempt, when the aircraft began porposing on landing, and the pilot tried to stop the plane before running off the runway.
FAA spokesman Mike Fergus told the Fresno Bee the McKittrick's flight instructor "told the tower that the student pilot was going to make patterns" before the accident.
The accident occurred Sunday morning at 0820 local time.
IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 51TK Make/Model: P51 Description: P-51, F-51, A-36 Mustang
Date: 07/15/2007 Time: 1505
Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: Fatal Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: Substantial
LOCATION
City: CAMARILLO State: CA Country: US
DESCRIPTION
AIRCRAFT ON LANDING, CRASHED AND CAME TO REST INVERTED, THE ONE PERSON ON
BOARD WAS FATALLY INJURED, CAMARILLO, CA
INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 1
# Crew: 1 Fat: 1 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
WEATHER: NOT REPORTED
OTHER DATA
Activity: Training Phase: Landing Operation: OTHER
FAA FSDO: VAN NUYS, CA (WP01) Entry date: 07/16/2007
Original Report
An early Sunday practice flight at Southern California's Camarillo airport has ended tragically for the new pilot of a P-51D Mustang. According to media and eyewitness reports, the aircraft was engaged in takeoff and landing transitions when the aircraft went down just after 0815, Pacific time.
The as yet unidentified Thousand Oaks California pilot, 42, was reportedly killed on impact. ANN News-Spy and media eyewitness reports seem to agree that the aircraft had apparently attempted a landing, and either bounced or ran into some issues therein and thereafter added power to either go-around or extend the landing when the aircraft appeared to roll-over and impact the ground, and come to rest inverted.
Impact forces were severe, causing the aircraft airframe to come apart, with the powerplant coming to rest several yards away from the rest of the airframe. Media reports indicate that the aircraft took most of the impact force along its left hand side as it rolled over while a fair amount of the right structure appears fairly intact.
The aircraft is identified as "LOU IV" and had recently been seen in the air during a Camarillo Fly-In. A P-51D Mustang nicknamed LOU IV originally served with the US 8th Air Force's 375th Fighter Squadron of the 361st Fighter Group in the UK.
Reports indicate that the pilot had been flying with an instructor just prior to the accident. According to Captain Mark Taillon, Ventura County Fire Department, the instructor disembarked from the aircraft and notified the tower that the pilot "was doing his first solo flight" in the aircraft. The FAA's Mike Fergus, reported that the instructor "told the tower that the student pilot was going to make patterns."
ANN is researching this accident and will have more information available shortly.
FMI: http://www.ventura.org/airports/cmamain.htm
P-51D Mustang Down In California
Mon, 16 Jul '07
Pilot Lost In Takeoff And Landing Drills
ANN REALTIME UPDATE 07.16.07 1720 EDT: Officials have released the name of the pilot of a P-51D Mustang who died in a Sunday morning accident at Camarillo Airport.
John McKittrick, 42, was at the controls when the warbird crashed at 0815 PDT Sunday morning. Sources tell ANN McKittrick had "several hundred" flight hours in other types of aircraft, though this was his first time soloing the P-51.
Eyewitnesses tell ANN the accident occurred during McKittrick's first landing attempt, when the aircraft began porposing on landing, and the pilot tried to stop the plane before running off the runway.
FAA spokesman Mike Fergus told the Fresno Bee the McKittrick's flight instructor "told the tower that the student pilot was going to make patterns" before the accident.
The accident occurred Sunday morning at 0820 local time.
IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 51TK Make/Model: P51 Description: P-51, F-51, A-36 Mustang
Date: 07/15/2007 Time: 1505
Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: Fatal Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: Substantial
LOCATION
City: CAMARILLO State: CA Country: US
DESCRIPTION
AIRCRAFT ON LANDING, CRASHED AND CAME TO REST INVERTED, THE ONE PERSON ON
BOARD WAS FATALLY INJURED, CAMARILLO, CA
INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 1
# Crew: 1 Fat: 1 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
WEATHER: NOT REPORTED
OTHER DATA
Activity: Training Phase: Landing Operation: OTHER
FAA FSDO: VAN NUYS, CA (WP01) Entry date: 07/16/2007
Original Report
An early Sunday practice flight at Southern California's Camarillo airport has ended tragically for the new pilot of a P-51D Mustang. According to media and eyewitness reports, the aircraft was engaged in takeoff and landing transitions when the aircraft went down just after 0815, Pacific time.
The as yet unidentified Thousand Oaks California pilot, 42, was reportedly killed on impact. ANN News-Spy and media eyewitness reports seem to agree that the aircraft had apparently attempted a landing, and either bounced or ran into some issues therein and thereafter added power to either go-around or extend the landing when the aircraft appeared to roll-over and impact the ground, and come to rest inverted.
Impact forces were severe, causing the aircraft airframe to come apart, with the powerplant coming to rest several yards away from the rest of the airframe. Media reports indicate that the aircraft took most of the impact force along its left hand side as it rolled over while a fair amount of the right structure appears fairly intact.
The aircraft is identified as "LOU IV" and had recently been seen in the air during a Camarillo Fly-In. A P-51D Mustang nicknamed LOU IV originally served with the US 8th Air Force's 375th Fighter Squadron of the 361st Fighter Group in the UK.
Reports indicate that the pilot had been flying with an instructor just prior to the accident. According to Captain Mark Taillon, Ventura County Fire Department, the instructor disembarked from the aircraft and notified the tower that the pilot "was doing his first solo flight" in the aircraft. The FAA's Mike Fergus, reported that the instructor "told the tower that the student pilot was going to make patterns."
ANN is researching this accident and will have more information available shortly.
FMI: http://www.ventura.org/airports/cmamain.htm
Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:38 am
tom d. friedman wrote:
These comments are as ill informed as most of the media accounts...you have absolutely no basis to determine what experience he had or what process was undertaken in this check out. The guy bought the airplane in Dec 06, it doesn't require a type rating if it was in limited or standard category, he could have gotten in and attempted to fly it months ago. Short of being suicidal, one can only assume he was getting prepared for this tragic flight as best he could. Someone evaluated his skill level and signed him off for this solo. At least 2 people, himself and his instructor thought he was prepared.
I'm growing very tired of the constant assumptions that people have made about my net worth, background and probable flight experience since I got my Skyraider. I was a military trained aviator with a good deal of experience and I bought a T6 after I got the AD and trained for an additional year before I got typed in the AD, just to make sure I was ready. Shortly after I got typed I made a fairly serious stupid mistake and through nothing more than dumb luck, didn't hurt anyone of damage anything at all. This guy wasn't as fortunate, in many ways my incident was the best thing that could have happened to me. It taught me alot in a few seconds, that has stayed with me virtually every flight since.
I'm sure if you ask Vlado or John Lane or any of the other guys that are true pros in this biz, they will tell you no one is immune from possible mistakes. It doesn't matter how much money or experience you have, its always out there.
If it can happen to Art Vance, then certainly, no one, is exempt.
Discuss it, learn from it, but please, leave the BS assumptions out of it.
It is not the critic who counts, nor the man who points how the strong man stumbled or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly...who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at best, knows the triumph of high achievement; and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.
Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
i'm no pilot, just an enthusiast, aviation historian, & author..... but i can say this........ these air time green behind the ears millionaire pilots need to get their wings the old fashioned way....... starting in a cub, & transitioning up as air time / experience accumulates, just like ww 2 training. tragic loss. you all learned to ride a bike with training wheels, this should be no different.
These comments are as ill informed as most of the media accounts...you have absolutely no basis to determine what experience he had or what process was undertaken in this check out. The guy bought the airplane in Dec 06, it doesn't require a type rating if it was in limited or standard category, he could have gotten in and attempted to fly it months ago. Short of being suicidal, one can only assume he was getting prepared for this tragic flight as best he could. Someone evaluated his skill level and signed him off for this solo. At least 2 people, himself and his instructor thought he was prepared.
I'm growing very tired of the constant assumptions that people have made about my net worth, background and probable flight experience since I got my Skyraider. I was a military trained aviator with a good deal of experience and I bought a T6 after I got the AD and trained for an additional year before I got typed in the AD, just to make sure I was ready. Shortly after I got typed I made a fairly serious stupid mistake and through nothing more than dumb luck, didn't hurt anyone of damage anything at all. This guy wasn't as fortunate, in many ways my incident was the best thing that could have happened to me. It taught me alot in a few seconds, that has stayed with me virtually every flight since.
I'm sure if you ask Vlado or John Lane or any of the other guys that are true pros in this biz, they will tell you no one is immune from possible mistakes. It doesn't matter how much money or experience you have, its always out there.
If it can happen to Art Vance, then certainly, no one, is exempt.
Discuss it, learn from it, but please, leave the BS assumptions out of it.
It is not the critic who counts, nor the man who points how the strong man stumbled or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly...who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at best, knows the triumph of high achievement; and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.
Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
Last edited by EDowning on Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:51 am
Well said Eric, I fly in the corporate world and its to see what I see. Mistakes are made, but sometimes you only get one chance.
Fly Smart, Fly Safe.........
Lynn
to see what I see. Mistakes are made, but sometimes you only get one chance.
Fly Smart, Fly Safe.........
Lynn
Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:54 am
I had the good fortune to dine with Ed Russell (he of the Russell Collection) and another fellow warbird enthusiast back in 2005, and we talked about his collection and how he planned to display them. To his credit, Ed refused to fly anything but the T-6 (which he was current on) until he had a significant number of hours of training under his belt and was checked out by a qualified Spit and Hurri pilot (I don't think he personally flies the 109, but stand to be corrected on that). He was very cognizant of the immense power of these machines, and wanted to take things slowly... the temptation was oh so great to simply run out, strap on the Spitfire, and go dashing down the grass strip, but to do so while unprepared would be incredibly dangerous.
It sounds as though Mr. McKittrick took the same approach to his Mustang, for which he is to be commended... the media will naturally try to portray any accident involving aircraft as a rash stunt by a reckless pilot, when nothing could be further from the truth. If what we're hearing is correct, the accident may have come from trying to be TOO careful. I imagine the NTSB focus will likely turn to the instructor, and the training regimen he put Mr. McKittrick through.
Maybe a few of us here who knew him personally ought to send letters to the TV station and local newspaper to defend Mr. McKittrick...
It sounds as though Mr. McKittrick took the same approach to his Mustang, for which he is to be commended... the media will naturally try to portray any accident involving aircraft as a rash stunt by a reckless pilot, when nothing could be further from the truth. If what we're hearing is correct, the accident may have come from trying to be TOO careful. I imagine the NTSB focus will likely turn to the instructor, and the training regimen he put Mr. McKittrick through.
Maybe a few of us here who knew him personally ought to send letters to the TV station and local newspaper to defend Mr. McKittrick...
Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:14 am
EDowning wrote:tom d. friedman wrote:i'm no pilot, just an enthusiast, aviation historian, & author..... but i can say this........ these air time green behind the ears millionaire pilots need to get their wings the old fashioned way....... starting in a cub, & transitioning up as air time / experience accumulates, just like ww 2 training. tragic loss. you all learned to ride a bike with training wheels, this should be no different.
These comments are as ill informed as most of the media accounts...you have absolutely no basis to determine what experience he had or what process was undertaken in this check out. The guy bought the airplane in Dec 06, it doesn't require a type rating if it was in limited or standard category, he could have gotten in and attempted to fly it months ago. Short of being suicidal, one can only assume he was getting prepared for this tragic flight as best he could. Someone evaluated his skill level and signed him off for this solo. At least 2 people, himself and his instructor thought he was prepared.
I'm growing very tired of the constant assumptions that people have made about my net worth, background and probable flight experience since I got my Skyraider. I was a military trained aviator with a good deal of experience and I bought a T6 after I got the AD and trained for an additional year before I got typed in the AD, just to make sure I was ready. Shortly after I got typed I made a fairly serious stupid mistake and through nothing more than dumb luck, didn't hurt anyone of damage anything at all. This guy wasn't as fortunate, in many ways my incident was the best thing that could have happened to me. It taught me alot in a few seconds, that has stayed with me virtually every flight since.
I'm sure if you ask Vlado or John Lane or any of the other guys that are true pros in this biz, they will tell you no one is immune from possible mistakes. It doesn't matter how much money or experience you have, its always out there.
If it can happen to Art Vance, no one, is immune.
Discuss it, learn from it, but please, leave the BS assumptions out of it.
It is not the critic who counts, nor the man who points how the strong man stumbled or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly...who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at best, knows the triumph of high achievement; and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.
Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
Well said Eric!! Spot on!!
Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:14 am
tom d. friedman wrote:i'm no pilot, just an enthusiast, aviation historian, & author..... but i can say this........ these air time green behind the ears millionaire pilots need to get their wings the old fashioned way....... starting in a cub, & transitioning up as air time / experience accumulates, just like ww 2 training. tragic loss. you all learned to ride a bike with training wheels, this should be no different.
I am disappointed that a person who professes to be a historian and author will rely on a single source for something and make an assumption based on that.
John McKittrick had HUNDREDS of flight hours and an IFR rating. That is hardly a novice. Plus, he had over 30 hours of training in that very airplane. Let's not smear the name of a good pilot that made a fatal error.
Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:10 am
I never met John McKittrick but he was living my dream, fly and fly a mustang!
I was not there, maybe it was not pilot error, maybe a mechanical snag came up, we just don't know nor does it matter.
I'm starting flying lessons and at times the thought (fear) of what if creeps in my mind, so I can only look in wonderment of those that posses the spirit to follow their dreams.
To John's family and friends
.
I was not there, maybe it was not pilot error, maybe a mechanical snag came up, we just don't know nor does it matter.
I'm starting flying lessons and at times the thought (fear) of what if creeps in my mind, so I can only look in wonderment of those that posses the spirit to follow their dreams.
To John's family and friends
The Ship by Dr. Harold Blake Walker
I am standing on the seashore. A ship at my side spreads her white sails to the morning breeze and starts for the blue ocean. She is an object of beauty and strength, and I stand and watch her until at length she lands like a speck of white cloud just where the sea and sky come down to mingle with each other.
Then someone at my side says, 'There, she's gone.' Gone where? Gone from my sight, that is all. She is just as large in mast and hull and spars as when she left my side, and just as able to bear her load of living freight to their place of destination. Her diminished size is in me and not in her. And just at the moment when someone at my side says, 'There, she's gone!', there are other eyes that are watching her coming and other voices ready to take up the glad shout, 'There she comes!'"
.
Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:52 am
tom d. friedman wrote:i'm no pilot, just an enthusiast, aviation historian, & author..... but i can say this........ these air time green behind the ears millionaire pilots need to get their wings the old fashioned way....... starting in a cub, & transitioning up as air time / experience accumulates, just like ww 2 training. tragic loss. you all learned to ride a bike with training wheels, this should be no different.
I also have to echo the comments made by Eric and others.
Also, keep in mind that MANY pilots were lost in training in WWII. Accidents happen, even under the best of training programs. If anything, it appears the pilot may have been taking things a bit more slowly than would have happened in WWII. A lot of guys back then strapped on Mustangs having never been in one before, let alone flown in one with an instructor.
Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:14 am
mjanovec wrote:tom d. friedman wrote:i'm no pilot, just an enthusiast, aviation historian, & author..... but i can say this........ these air time green behind the ears millionaire pilots need to get their wings the old fashioned way....... starting in a cub, & transitioning up as air time / experience accumulates, just like ww 2 training. tragic loss. you all learned to ride a bike with training wheels, this should be no different.
I also have to echo the comments made by Eric and others.
Also, keep in mind that MANY pilots were lost in training in WWII. Accidents happen, even under the best of training programs. If anything, it appears the pilot may have been taking things a bit more slowly than would have happened in WWII. A lot of guys back then strapped on Mustangs having never been in one before, let alone flown in one with an instructor.
Hey don't be so hard on tommie! He got one thing right! He's no pilot!
Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:48 am
He was living my dream. I am training in a citabria(yes i know weird to train in conventional gear this day in age) Landings scare me every once in awhile. I guess my big fear is the ground loop. Talwheel airplanes are trickier but I think it will make me a better pilot in the long run. I hate to see a wrecked warbird.....hate more to see a man killed in a wrecked waribird. My thoughts to his family.
Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:50 am
The first flight in a '51 was of necessity a solo, but no one ever went up in Mustang who didn't already have time in a PT, BT, and AT.
From the limited information posted, a possible scenario is an attempted go-around with insufficient rudder to counter the torque. That scenario can get you hurt in a Cessna 150, not to mention a Mustang.
Condolences to his family and friends.
From the limited information posted, a possible scenario is an attempted go-around with insufficient rudder to counter the torque. That scenario can get you hurt in a Cessna 150, not to mention a Mustang.
Condolences to his family and friends.
Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:51 am
The last time I saw her was at the Christina Aguilera video shoot in January. Better times.
Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:28 am
From this morning's Ventura County Star...
Pilot killed in crash is identified
Oaks Christian coach died while landing vintage plane
By Adam Foxman (Contact)
Tuesday, July 17, 2007
A pilot killed in a weekend accident at the Camarillo Airport was identified Monday as John McKittrick, a 42-year-old Thousand Oaks resident and assistant football coach at Oaks Christian School.
McKittrick was killed Sunday while landing a vintage P-51D Mustang.
Authorities said the World War II-era aircraft flipped over near the south end of the runway shortly after 8 a.m. McKittrick was pronounced dead at 8:35 a.m.
The plane "bounced several times, shot off the runway to the left, and came to rest and flipped over" while landing, said Ian Gregor, a spokesman for the Federal Aviation Administration.
Gregor said McKittrick gave no sign of trouble before the fatal landing. It was his first solo flight of the aircraft.
Pilots and flying enthusiasts at the Camarillo Airport speculated Monday that too much engine torque caused the powerful warplane to flip over.
"In these big airplanes, the plane wants to rotate in the opposite direction around the propeller," said Casey deBree, a past president of the Commemorative Air Force chapter based at the Camarillo Airport.
"These warbirds are a handful. They are very high-powered, and you can get into trouble very easily."
McKittrick was an experienced pilot, said Jan Hethcock, athletic director at Oaks Christian School in Thousand Oaks, where McKittrick worked as an assistant football coach.
"We're all stunned by what happened," Hethcock said Monday. "It was a freakish accident, I guess."
Hethcock described McKittrick "as a good friend, a great dad, an excellent husband," and someone who loved Oaks Christian.
McKittrick was involved in numerous activities at the school, Hethcock said.
McKittrick's wife, Michele, teaches physical fitness at the school. He also has a son and a daughter who are students there.
"He is going to be missed tremendously," Hethcock said.
The P-51D Mustang fighter planes were used to escort bombers over Germany during World War II.
Worldwide, there are only about 40 P-51s still flying, and they can sell for more than $1.5 million, deBree said.
"The age of a plane really has nothing to do with its airworthiness," Gregor said.
"If an aircraft is properly maintained, it's perfectly safe to fly."
Of the 290 fatal incidents that have involved general aviation in California during the past decade, only two were related to vintage planes, according to a National Transportation Safety Board database.
Pilot killed in crash is identified
Oaks Christian coach died while landing vintage plane
By Adam Foxman (Contact)
Tuesday, July 17, 2007
A pilot killed in a weekend accident at the Camarillo Airport was identified Monday as John McKittrick, a 42-year-old Thousand Oaks resident and assistant football coach at Oaks Christian School.
McKittrick was killed Sunday while landing a vintage P-51D Mustang.
Authorities said the World War II-era aircraft flipped over near the south end of the runway shortly after 8 a.m. McKittrick was pronounced dead at 8:35 a.m.
The plane "bounced several times, shot off the runway to the left, and came to rest and flipped over" while landing, said Ian Gregor, a spokesman for the Federal Aviation Administration.
Gregor said McKittrick gave no sign of trouble before the fatal landing. It was his first solo flight of the aircraft.
Pilots and flying enthusiasts at the Camarillo Airport speculated Monday that too much engine torque caused the powerful warplane to flip over.
"In these big airplanes, the plane wants to rotate in the opposite direction around the propeller," said Casey deBree, a past president of the Commemorative Air Force chapter based at the Camarillo Airport.
"These warbirds are a handful. They are very high-powered, and you can get into trouble very easily."
McKittrick was an experienced pilot, said Jan Hethcock, athletic director at Oaks Christian School in Thousand Oaks, where McKittrick worked as an assistant football coach.
"We're all stunned by what happened," Hethcock said Monday. "It was a freakish accident, I guess."
Hethcock described McKittrick "as a good friend, a great dad, an excellent husband," and someone who loved Oaks Christian.
McKittrick was involved in numerous activities at the school, Hethcock said.
McKittrick's wife, Michele, teaches physical fitness at the school. He also has a son and a daughter who are students there.
"He is going to be missed tremendously," Hethcock said.
The P-51D Mustang fighter planes were used to escort bombers over Germany during World War II.
Worldwide, there are only about 40 P-51s still flying, and they can sell for more than $1.5 million, deBree said.
"The age of a plane really has nothing to do with its airworthiness," Gregor said.
"If an aircraft is properly maintained, it's perfectly safe to fly."
Of the 290 fatal incidents that have involved general aviation in California during the past decade, only two were related to vintage planes, according to a National Transportation Safety Board database.
Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:43 am
God Speed... 