Letters from Iwo Jima

[muddyboots]

I was thinkig of the smallpox infested blankets we gave them so disease would kill them off. Or the destruction of every indian culture on the south American continent bigger than a village. And the destruction or amalgamation of all of the North American cultures. The murder of women and children on an industrial scale, and stealing their lands. No, we Americans have our own laundry list.

Then there was our hero Columbus who advocated enslaving or killing the entire population of South America...and who started one of the world's "great" genocides.

We do indeed stand on the shoulders of giants.

[Randy Haskin]

"The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them."

~ George Orwell

[Steve Nelson]

Well, I have to admit that when I started this thread I figured it would quickly degenerate into a flame war. Frankly it stayed non-political far longer than I expected. Maybe it's time for the mods to move it to off-topic or lock it down.

SN

[muddyboots]

I was actually sort of impressed that it stayed on warplanes as long as it did before the Anti Japan Marching Band crossed paths with the "Not every Japanese was evil" brigade.

[Mudge]

Didn't Wounded Knee involve American Indians?

Mudge the stirrer

[mustangdriver]

I don't think that there is anything wrong with a debate, as long as it is respectful and on the topic of what we are talking about. And so far I think that everyone is respectful. The folks that bring up stuff from the Native American cracks me up. It reminds me of my wife telling me about something I did a year ago while we are arguing about something that is going on now. Why is the Native America brought up in a converstation about WWII? Why is everyone so quick to say that "You aren't perfect look what you did years ago." It has nothing to with the topic of japanese in WWII. I know that we aren't perfect, but we don't ignore our past. We may not be proud of things that we did, but you can find out about them. There was a girl in my high school history class that was a foriegn exchange student from Germany. She had never heard of the Holocaust or a Concentration Camp! If you don't think that the axis of WWII was evil, then you should have to wear foil on your head so that we all know who you are. For God sakes man! If the treatment of the P.O.W.s in the care of the japanese isn't evil I don't know what is.

[Nathan]

Over on j-aircraft.com we study Japanese WWII aviation history. I hope that does not make me out as pro-Axie Japanese because it doesn't. But I will say Japan did have some very good fighter pilots. If anything they had lots of balls.

[Dan Newcomb]

When I was a young wet behind the ears hippie I believed in a lot of what you kids are saying. Low and behold I moved on and started to make some money and bought a house and quit smoking dope and started to vote and questioned the liberal professors and realized that my country was something worth fighting for. I saw my friends coming back from Vietnam degraded and spit upon and called baby killers just because they served their country. I voted Democrat and I voted Republican. Now I’m an independent. Your views are part of the maturing process. Many of you will soon out grow socialism and communism. You will rail and demean and scream and yell for a while yet, but someday, you will come to your senses. The things that you are saying are old hat. One of these days you will wake up and start thinking for yourself. I have a few friends who to this day live in a doublewide trailer and smoke dope and talk of the redistribution of wealth. God love you. As Hillary said. “It takes a village”. I served my time in harness and I apologize for nothing. You, like the poor, will always be with us. Like a cancer we will have to deal with you. Never in my wildest dreams do I think that I can change your views. I will trust in the political process. I have always felt at home with those who serve. They will always be my heroes. The rest of you are just going through the motions. Most of you don’t have a clue. I served and paid my dues and I know what it is like to hear the pipes play Amazing Grace when you bury a friend.

All the best,

Dan

Can we get back to war birds?

[airnutz]

Well, I have to admit that when I started this thread I figured it would quickly degenerate into a flame war. Frankly it stayed non-political far longer than I expected. Maybe it's time for the mods to move it to off-topic or lock it down.

SN

Why would we lock-down or move to Off Topic one of the most intelligently discussed
topics pertinent to history..as well as the subject?? We have warriors-current, warriors-past, historians and
folks who represent or study history on a daily basis...Why turn a blindeye and "wish it away to the cornfield"?
History ain't pretty and it's certainly not easy to understand. This subject keeps coming up..it ain't gone away in
150 years..might as well discuss onward.

It's certainly more pertinent to warbirds than some chaps private flight lesson experiences being posted in the Warbird Hangar!
(Apologies..I prefer my history shaken..not stirred..

[fotobass]

"The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them."

~ George Orwell

That's a fantastic quote. Is it from a book or somewhere else?

[Bill Greenwood]

Dan, you obviously heve some strong and heartfelt views. Part of it seems to be based on the idea that our servicemen and now women fought hard or did their duty, therefore any war they fought in or any president they fought under must be right. Does this logic hold up?, Our enemies also fought hard and bravely. The Germans and Japanese had more sucessful pilots than the US. Hartmann had 352 confirmed, Barkhorn 300, Rall 275. This one wing of Germans had over 1000 confirmed kills! Our top guys had a few dozen each. Obvoulsy these Germans were top notch, yet they fought for Hitler and the Nazis. Thier skill, or bravery or valor, does not change the wrong of their cause or the horror of what their govt and Hitler did. I have heard Rall say the same thing in a public apology. Certainly the Japanese fought bravely, frequently to the death. It doesn't excuse their butchery of civilans and prisoners, nor make their cause just or leaders right. Our country and our servicemen are more just then many other countries, but there are times we are wrong; ie My Lai. Most soldiers did not kill babies, but a couple of hundred did knowingly and wilingly. It is sad, but what is sadder is our govt and Nixon's response to that. Rather that trying to put things right they tried to cover it up and lie about the circumstances and losses. Two of my heroes are the one Black Sgt, that would not shoot women and children, "since his Mom had raised him better than that", and the helicopter pilot who saw it from the air and landed to try to stop the carnage. He finally recieved decorations for this, but much critisim for telling the truth about what happend. If our country or cause or people are in the right, we should not try to hide from open and honest discussion.

[rwdfresno]

P.S. Spitfires ! Gayest aircraft ever!

[muddyboots]

When I was a young wet behind the ears hippie I believed in a lot of what you kids are saying. Low and behold I moved on and started to make some money and bought a house and quit smoking dope and started to vote and questioned the liberal professors and realized that my country was something worth fighting for. I saw my friends coming back from Vietnam degraded and spit upon and called baby killers just because they served their country. I voted Democrat and I voted Republican. Now I’m an independent. Your views are part of the maturing process. Many of you will soon out grow socialism and communism. You will rail and demean and scream and yell for a while yet, but someday, you will come to your senses. The things that you are saying are old hat. One of these days you will wake up and start thinking for yourself. I have a few friends who to this day live in a doublewide trailer and smoke dope and talk of the redistribution of wealth. God love you. As Hillary said. “It takes a village”. I served my time in harness and I apologize for nothing. You, like the poor, will always be with us. Like a cancer we will have to deal with you. Never in my wildest dreams do I think that I can change your views. I will trust in the political process. I have always felt at home with those who serve. They will always be my heroes. The rest of you are just going through the motions. Most of you don’t have a clue.
Dan

No, they are not old hat. Not one person here has said that the war didn't need to be fought, the bomb didn't need to be dropped, or that women should be allowed to go shirtless in the summer (although...) You can ad infinitum your laundry list of "liberals are pathetic" and still none of it will apply to those of us who say that there are more shades than two in the history of the war. Thought, logic, and refusing to allow anger or simple meaness to distort a conclusion are generally not considered "hippie" in the world today. Generally we call it "thinking,". Thinking, btw IS considered of benefit.
Many of us served. I served in a number of combat zones. Didn't mean I wasn't willing to look at the other guy if it could help me beat him. Many of us vets believe that it is important to actually look at the record. Not what somebody said. I guess that was something they started teaching after the turn of the last century You should try it.

[Mudge]

rwdfresno....To quote the caveman.... WHAT?

Mudge the astounded

[Randy Haskin]

"The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them."

~ George Orwell

That's a fantastic quote. Is it from a book or somewhere else?

It is from one of Orwell's essays on nationalism. I grabbed it from an old college textbook of mine...not certain of it's original publication, unfortunately.