Letters from Iwo Jima

[Dan Newcomb]

Just one more comment and at the risk of further alienation and then I’m done with this topic. In the immortal words of that great human being Rodney King (he was great because he provided me with hours of needed overtime)..

“Can’t we all just get along?”

[muddyboots]

In my 58 years I have sadly witnessed the softening and down playing of what happened in WWII. There are many reasons for this, some political, some economic and I am sure a desire to forgive and forget. Guilt also plays a part. We all want to think that the other guy is just like us and if we could just sit down and have a couple of beers we could work things out. It is hard for most of us to believe that there are nasty mean disgusting people out there that really like to kill. It is hard for us to believe there are governments that will do anything including murder to further their goals. We like to think that we are all moral nice people and that given a decent childhood with loving parents we will all live together in one big harmonious family of love.

It is always amazing to me that as soon as this discussion starts, someone accuses those who believe life, war, and America are filled with nuance and not always perfect every time--get accused of being tree hugging pinko fag commies.

*puts flower in helmet netting*

Why is it so hard to imagine there are people alive today who have seen the awfulness that humanity can do, and who still believe that actually looking at everyones role can be an important part of learning from it?

Someone in this thread talked about noble causes.

The Nazis perceived a civilization without Jews and exterminated millions of them. Oh what a noble cause!

Someone questioned if these regimes were evil. I think they were. Personally it is hard for me to define evil any better.

Certainly the Nazis wanted to wipe out the Jews. However, it is duplicitous to claim that every German was a Nazi. Nor was every Nazi a german. Nor did it necessarily follow that any of the above were absolutely and finally eviil to their core just because Dan Newcomb wants to think so. It is ridiculous to claim that there weren't heroic Germans. Of course there were. And many believed that fighting ~ first to win Germany's place in the sun, avenge the treason of WWI, and later just to defend Germany from Russia was quite noble. Being misguided doesn't remove the good intent.

Again, to refuse to admit that they could be and were quite heroic ignores reality, is dangerous, and demands a lack of though from myself that I refuse to bow to.

To equate the two atom bombs dropped on Japan with the wanton brutality and butchery of the Japanese is sickening. We killed more Japanese with firebomb raids then we did with the atom bombs. The bombs SAVED lives. American lives. They did exactly what they were designed to do. END THE WAR. We even warned the Japanese before we dropped them. The proof is that we had to drop TWO. The fanatical Japanese government actually considered continuing the war.

You have got to be kidding. This argument is long dead. FInd a new cat to swing The only reason we dropped the bombs was Russia.

"In 1945 Secretary of War Stimson, visiting my headquarters in Germany, informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act. During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives."[78][79]
~~Eisenhower~~

"The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace. The atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military point of view, in the defeat of Japan." Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the U.S. Pacific Fleet.[82]

"The use of [the atomic bombs] at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender." Admiral William D. Leahy, Chief of Staff to President Truman.[82]

Arguing over what is heroic is about as useless as arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
My point. We were right! They were wrong! I’m damned glad we won!
Dan

I am pretty sure that having a bronze star with a V and an oak leaf on it does count as heroic. At least that is what the Army said. And generally you want heroic types to fight your wars. So certainly it is not "useless". And not very difficult to do if you are willing to look honestly at the facts. Which many Americans are not willing to do.
My "point" : if we don't look at what happened, how will we ever know what happened?

[rwdfresno]

I miss the political discussions.

[mustangdriver]

The only reason we dropped the bomb was Russia? Holly crap man! At any rate we are getting way off here. The thread is about the movie. I told you all my concerns about it. I don't think less of anyone that likes or dislikes it. but one needs to remember that this is not a documentary but a movie. One must learn and be open to hearing both sides of an argument. But one must also be strong enough to hear the results.

[Dan Newcomb]

Hey I got a great idea! Lets move this to MoveOn.org. I don't wanna play anymore. Back to warbirds?

[fotobass]

This thing causes a poohstorm every time it comes up.

Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan under Tojo were horrifically evil regimes. The things done in their names were unspeakable in the terror they inflicted.

The current pope was an antiaircraft gunner under one of those regimes, and he seems to be a pretty decent and God-fearing sort.

My point is this 9and I'm sure I'll be perceived as an anti-American devilbunny in a second)...

The regimes were evil. That is unquestioned. Things done under the command of those regimes were horrific. There were also (inarguably, in my opinion), remarkably decent humans under both banners who tried to be upstanding reasonable souls.

I personally find their stories interesting.

[planeoldsteve]

It is hard for most of us to believe that there are nasty mean disgusting people out there that really like to kill. It is hard for us to believe there are governments that will do anything including murder to further their goals.

Yeah, the US Gov would never do something evil like that!

The last time I check the U.S. never did anything even close to what the axis did.

That's because the winners get to write the history books!

Just ask a native American!

Steve

[bipe215]

So this three-legged dog walks into a bar, looks around, and says
"I'm lookin' for the man that shot my paw"

Just thought this thread needed something light.

Steve G

[mustangdriver]

It is hard for most of us to believe that there are nasty mean disgusting people out there that really like to kill. It is hard for us to believe there are governments that will do anything including murder to further their goals.

Yeah, the US Gov would never do something evil like that!

The last time I check the U.S. never did anything even close to what the axis did.

That's because the winners get to write the history books!

Just ask a native American!

Steve

First off the history books you mention are interesting. They don't speak of WWII for more than a few pages. The ones in Japan make no mention to it at all! The Chinese just recently demonstrated against it by burning history books. You mention the native Americans. I doubt we did half as much stuff to them as the axis did to their P.O.W.'s. There are big differences there. One is that the U.S. has places you can go and learn about what went on between the native Americans and the Pilgrims and such. Where is the Bataan Death March Memorial? Another is that was how long ago? WWII was not that long ago at all.

[JDK]

Someone questioned if these regimes were evil. I think they were.

Hi Dan,
As far as I can see that's only your interpretation - no one's view here.

Certainly not mine.

I'm interested in history, hence I'm wary of definitions of evil, but there's no argument from anyone that what happened in Japan's war was appalling, unacceptable uncivilized and shocking. Evil's as good a term if you like.

But to keep it simple, not all the white hat cowboys are on the same side, and if you think you can assume all 'your guys' are good and all 'their guys' are bad, then you are going to lose any fight you are in, or take us all into a mess we'd rather not join, thanks. If you can't stomach my opinion, see 'Weary' Dunlop's, and listen to two of your own vets on this thread.

By all means, let's keep it on warbirds, but if politics is if the agenda, it's off for everyone, surely. Despite some of the heat, I learn stuff from people's input, not always what I'd like to learn which is what makes it valuable. Anyone want an argument about the right to an opinion?


Regards,

[Dan Newcomb]

Then they weren't evil? You are sending me mixed signals.

[JDK]

Then they weren't evil? You are sending me mixed signals.

It's a religious or ethical term, rather than a purely historical one, IMHO. Like calling them 'Satanists'. I wouldn't use the term, myself, generally, but if someone else does I get the point, and don't disagree. It's just semantics, and we are well off topic.

[Dan Newcomb]

I love ya buddy and know this America stood by your country when Japan was on your doorstep and we will be there any time you need us Ausie Ausie Ausie!!!!!!

[muddyboots]

Was Rome evil? The Gauls thought so.
The Gauls? Rome thought so.
Was Ghenghis Khan evil?
everybody thought so until he conquered them.
Were our settlers evil? The indians thought so.
American indians? Settlers thought so.
Was Japan evil? We thought so.


We would have fought Japan even had they not been inhumane. We ere just as imperialistic as they were. Same with Germany.

[fotobass]

You mention the native Americans. I doubt we did half as much stuff to them as the axis did to their P.O.W.'s.

Respectfully, I'd suggest reading about Wounded Knee or any of numerous aoccounts before claiming this. Most massacres of Native Americans involved their villages, where the women and children lived. I think you'll find that it's not as clearcut as you suggest.