Warbird Information Exchange

Right up front, let me tell anyone reading this that I am a member of the Board (unpaid!) of the WW1 Aero organization, which publishes the quarterly "WW1 Aero" and "Skyways" quarterly journals.

Some members of our Board are taking the view that interest in "early" aviation history is rapidly fading. I take an opposite view and believe that we simply are not reaching an EXPANDING number of folks interested in all aspects of aviation history. This web site seems to confirm that.

Would anyone who has a view on this please take a moment and check the WW1 Aero web site and weigh in on this issue? I need some help here, folks!

Dan Hagedorn

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I personally think there is a general "reduction" in interest in aviation across the board, as evidenced by the slow death of GA certainly in my country and the visitations and memberships of a volunteer museum I am involved with.

Thats not to say that there isnt still a strong interest in "early" aviation, or WW2 Warbirds, quite the opposite could be argued by the number of WW1 restorations and replicas popping out of the system at the moment, the exotic recoveries from Russia, or the re-production of Me262s or FW190's.

However I do believe aviation has lost its 'sparkle" for the next generation, to them its just another mode of transport, like cars, boats and trains, I think a similar thing has happened in the train enthusiast world with steam engines in the past, kids no longer grow up wanting to be a "train driver" as they might have in the 1930's, I dont think todays generation grow up wanting to a be "pilot or astronaut" to the level they did when I was growing up in the 1960's.

The baby boomer generation grew up idolising its paternal generation who flew in combat in WW2 or Korea etc, and spent its time building airfix kits etc, imagining that world.

The interest in restoring WW2 aircraft, and restoring or building replicas of WW1 aircraft all "took-off" after WW2, led by the huge numbers of airmen trained during the war and able to return to civil life with a skill and interest in aviation, - this was often passed over to the next generation.

Our Children, (and their children) live in a world where space flights are the norm (and uninteresting to them), where Videos, TV, PC's and electronic games deliver the entertainment and "imagination" that pieces of sticks etc played in our childhood games.

Kids today can fly just about any vintage of aircraft on their PC flightsim, and more and more games are being set in fantasy worlds with modern or future hardware etc.

It is therefore very hard to capture and retain the interest of these future generations in anything outside the house and in the real world, let alone in aviation.

Two of my four children intend to pursue careers in computer "game" programming, and I have no doubt at least one will do that.

Personal recreation choices for todays generation growing up include sport, car racing, trail-bikes, boating etc, the low entry cost of other interests/hobbies such as jet-skis or trail-bikes undermines interest in aviation in my opinion, which requires expensive training to enter as a pilot and a small fortune to enter as an owner - regardless of the type of aviation.

For those who do acquire an interest in aviation there is a kaleidoscope of "aviation" to get interested in or involved in as a career or hobby.

GA, Commercial/Military, warbirds, antiques and homebuilts, sports/aerobatics. Even in the warbirds area the once dominant WW2 scene is giving way to younger aircraft and younger pilots who either have a greater affinity to Korean, Vietnam etc vintage aircraft, yearn a higher performance (jet etc) or simply cant afford the WW2 market due to its spiraling costs, hence the explosion of eastern bloc jets and Chinese primary trainers.

All of this is no reason to throw the towel in at WW1 Aero, or a local aviation museum, but it does mean making our hobbies more attractive and accessible to a wider audience (even if that audience is dwindling).

I think the internet is an example of that, I dont think all of us posting here demonstrates an expansion of the number of people in aviation, just the existance of an excellent way to communicate.

I think overall interest in aviation will continue to contract, the WW2 and Korean War generations are slowly passing, and their numbers and level of interest are not being replaced at the other end.

We can make aviation as interesting and accessible to the wider general public and hope that in the future a healthly percentage will continue to move into aviation in some level of participation, and will reach and maintain some level of equilibrium.

Having said that I think there will be a renaissance of interest in early aviation and WW1 aviation over the next 10 years as we travel through the centenary celebrations of WW1.

We have seen an upsurge in replica construction, and re-enactments of Wright Flyers etc around the 1903 anniversary and I think something similar and larger will happen from now on and will peak in the 2015-2018 period, which will become the focus of movies, airshows and perhaps TV programs.

WW1 Aero should possibly be positioning itself to promote and encourage those activities? as a focus for its efforts.

On a personal note I have always had an interest in the WW1 Aero group and your publications etc, but have found that access to them seems to be only via mail and therefore limits my interests to progress any further -

I would certainly argue that strong presence on the Internet (for WW1 Aero, museums or anyone wishing to attract participants/supporters) is required to effectively communicate with the emerging generations, and even the existing ones, to continue to "compete" in a more complex and competitive world.

I hope my thoughts and opinions help you consider the issue?

regards

Mark Pilkington

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20th Century - The Age of Manned Flight
"from Wrights to Armstrong in 66 years -WOW!"

With all due respect to Mark P.'s very well thought out post, which I agree with in most respects, here is another angle.

The sheer number of things to do for those who are enthused by aviation history is probably the highest it has ever been in the history of the warbird movement. It is, however, dominated by warbirds. The antique airplane movement had its moment in the sun during the 1960's and 1970's. That faded away, but only because the second generation of people interested in that segment of aviation history went away, and the rise in curiousity about WWII era aviation has dominated since that time.

But let's look at the facts of life today in pre-1940 airplanes. No parts. No general experts. Little original documentation. All we have is examples and some few parts floating around. Economically, that would seem to doom the breed. I think that has brought most people to the need to totally restore their aircraft, and that is why you don't see many flying. You aren't going to find a Spad in a barn- those days are mostly over. And the price of replicating a pre-WWII airframe, with numerous notable exceptions, is much less than building a P-51. With all the pros out there doing such things nowadays, the antiques are only a few large checks away from existing.

Based on just my customer base and inquiries for antique aircraft parts (pre-1940), I think there is a signifigant number of people who are interested. It is certainly not the level of warbird interest, but it is strong. While warbirds have skyrocketed in price, the price of antique aircraft has leveled out, mostly due to the utility and supportability of the aircraft. Things which no one could dream of owning 20 years ago are affordable. There was just a museum opened, the WAAA, featuring the collection of I believe Terry Brandt. Russ Strine, of Mid Atlantic Air Museum, is busily working on a Kinner Sportster, the first airplane he flew, but nobody pays attention to it here because of the P-61. There are quite a few other people working on projects, including a number of new build antique aircraft which are well-financed and will fly in the next two to three years. While warbirds have dominated the public eye, the antique people have been quietly working toward many goals. There have been many dynamic rises and falls of warbird collections, but most of the antique collections have stayed pretty steady over the years.

I think we passed an important milestone in 2003 at the 100th anniversary. In the next 25 years, there will be a rise in interest in aviation history in general, and the antique aircraft will be part of that resurgence. It is the duty of organizations like the one you have to spread the word and reach those new people. But I think many of us interested in antiques are going to be biding our time while interest grows.

That being said, if you find anybody who disagrees and wants to sell their Curtiss JN-4 for less than $100K, send them my way...

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REMEMBER THE SERGEANT PILOTS!

Good to see you here, Uncle Dan!

Saludos,


Tulio

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Why take the best part of life out of your life, when you can have life with the best part of your life in your life?

I am one of them 'futbol' people.

Will the previous owner has pics of this double cabin sample

GOOD MORNING, WELCOME TO THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
Press "1" for English.
Press "2" to disconnect until you have learned to speak English.

Sooooo, how am I going to know to press 1 or 2, if I do not speak English????

I can't help thinking that EAA is on the right track with their Young Eagles program. Nothing like getting young people in an a/c and taking them flying to get them interested in aviation...sort of a "little league" or "pop warner" league for aviation.

That is why I am a Lifetime member of the EAA. I became a young Eagle in the mid-90's and have been going to Air Venture since 1996. Picture this. You are 16 years old, get a brand new Mustang the morning that you leave for Oshkosh. I had to wait for almost a week to get home and drive it, but I was distracted anyway. I think that the EAA is doing a great thing, and now they have their Air Academy.

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Chris Henry
EAA Aviation Museum Manager

Dan,

As a subscriber to WWI Aero (and occasional contributor) I feel the need to chime in on this topic from yet another perspective. Both Mark and Forgotten Field have made interesting observations regarding the state of warbirds and antique airplanes respectively and in comparison to other hobbies/interests/pastimes. I'm going to provide an answer to your question from one particular perspective.

I work with the Air Cadet Glding Program here in Canada and as a result get to deal with a large number of aviation minded youth. Admittedly this assessment will therefore be based largely on those who already have an interest in aviation however it will help illustrate what proportion of them have any interest in vintage airplanes.

Whether discussing airplanes from either war, the majority of them are tail draggers. In the modern context very few pilots learn to fly tail draggers at all, and even fewer do their ab initio instruction on them. In general it seems that most people who end up flying them do so for one of several specific reasons. Either someone wants to get into towing gliders, aerobatic flying, vintage flying or something else that takes place largely on aircraft with conventional landing gear. Looking overall at young people who learn to fly, those who hope to pursue one of these particular aspects of flying is definitely the minority. Most seem interested in flying commercially or for the military. Some hope to continue recreationally within the gliding program as tow pilots, or simply rent in order to keep their hand/take people flying/for travel.

A respectable number of these youth have at least an interest in vintage aeroplanes (enough interest to visit museums or attend airshows) but not enough to encourage them to take the necessary steps to try and fly them or become in organizations that preserve them. Amongst those who have a good chunk of tail dragger experience (in this case largely from towing gliders) there is a larger proportion who are interested in vintage aeroplanes but again a relatively small number are actually interested enough to become involved in the vintage aeroplane world.

Since I wasn't around, I can't speak directly to how many people in the 60s/70s got themselves into a tail dragger as compared to today. My guess would be that the proportion is decreasing over time and to me this suggests that amongst those who are already aviation minded there may in fact be a waning interest in early aviation.

Another example - I'm on the board of directors and fly with the Great War Flying Museum. We operate 7 WWI replica aircraft and have an active research/construction program to add to the fleet (2 more aircraft under construction). The membership demographics within the organization can be seen as a reflection of many issues. One factor that certainly affects whether or not someone becomes involved as a member is their degree of interest in this period of aviation. . Anyways, off the top of my head I'd say that the average age within out membership is around 55 years old, and the average age of regular contributors of labour is closer to 65. No more than 10% of our membership overall is under the age of 35 and amongst the pilots the demographics are similar. Within the context of the phenomena discussed by Mark it would seem to me that there may or may not be a dwindling interest in vintage aeroplanes overall, but I'm not overly encouraged by the way things look amongst aviation minded youth based on these figures. Admittedly, from a time and money perspective it is more challenging for a young person to become involved as compared to a senior. Yet there are even mandatory programs within schools here in Ontario whereby students must perform 40 hours of volunteer service in their community in order to graduate. In the 7 years this program has been in effect, only 2 young people have come to our museum as a result of it. Perhaps this is more of a reflection on the museum in that it hasn’t been able to attract young people, but at the same time I think I can be seen as suggesting that even when young people have the time available (as is the case when they must complete 40 hours of mandatory community service) they rarely chose to apply that time contributing to old airplanes.

The practical upshot of this can probably be addressed through the question of "are we going to run out of pilots to fly these old birds?" Generally I tend to think the answer to that is no, but I do wonder sometimes about just how experienced up and coming warbirds pilots will be compared to those who have done the job for the past several decades.

None the less, I too look forward to seeing the impact of the centennial of the Great War in terms of stirring up lasting interest regarding WWI aviation.

Thanks for posing an interesting question. I look forward to hearing the range of responses on this issue. Dan – I’d also like to hear why you think that interest in general is increasing, considering this website is hardly a representative sample of the general public, or of the broader aviation community.

Sincerely

Edward Soye

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http://www.harvards.com

For me, the WWI stuff doesn't hold the interest that the WWII stuff does. My aviation attention span starts about '35 and goes from there. Probably due to reasons already stated, the early era was never something that I could relate to or was exposed to much as a kid. I've never seen one fly in person... ever.

For example, when at the Museum in Seattle, I went through all the buildings and learned a great deal and had a great time. But while I was there, the WWII wing wasn't open yet and it broke my heart, as I had no idea if I would ever end up in Seattle again.

Hi Dan!

Well, my personal niche is WW2, but my early years were more of a WW1 flavour. My godfather was C R Glasebrook, who started an organisation called the Glasebrook Foundation to honour the WW1 vets. Since Rick's death, the foundation has pretty much withered, but they did publish a print with around 40 sigs of Aces Of The First Air War, from a Commemorative Meeting in Paris in Nov 1981. They also published a book called "American Aviators in the Great War 1914-1918". I was lucky enough to meet some of those gentlemen, among them Ken Porter, Bob Todd and Aloys Heldmann (Germany).

I'll have to check out the WW1 Aero Squadron. Thanks!

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Regards,

Jase
www.b26marauder.com
"I'm having a BLAST!!" 2007 CAF Wing Staff Conference

RIP Gary Austin..always in our hearts

After my distributor (Belle and Blade, a military video retailer) bought my first DVD of the Animated Aerial Adventures of Fritz the Fox, a WW2 themed cartoon, (see http://www.fritzthefox.com for details) it sold well enough that he requested a second volume. I had originally planned on producing a new adventure set during the Vietnam years, but he requested a WWI theme, saying that there was a large demand for Great War material that he was struggling to fill.

I think the interest is there, but the exposure isn't. Every topic becomes more interesting the more you learn about it. But it isn't easy to learn about WWI aviation...good books are few and far between, and the war lacked the technicolor coverage of later wars. There haven't been many good WWI movies to spur public interest, either. The Blue Max is still probably the best Hollywood has given us in that regard, and it wasn't exactly Oscar material.

WWI is just a war with poor PR. It is also front in center in a long list of wars that people would just as soon forget, as it was largely a pointless bloodbath that accomplished little politically other than to serve as a catalyst for future wars. But the war in the air during those years was exciting and colorful and more than capable of capturing the imagination of the public...it just has never been devoured by the media the way that WW2 has. It is, after all, much easier to chase down stock footage of WW2 aircraft for docummentaries, or find flyable examples of Spitfires and Mustangs, than it is to rent a Zeppelin.

But the crowds at Dayton's Dawn Patrol fly-in get bigger every time they hold it, and WWI flight simulators keep appearing on the horizon, and I think the Knights of the Air are just one good movie away from recapturing the fickle attention of the public. (Look what Top Gun did for the Navy)

Anyway, those of you with a jones for canvas and wood might enjoy the next Fritz DVD, which should be completed this summer. Here's some eye candy to contemplate until then...

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What is red, furry and on your six?

I really want to thank everyone who has weighed in on this issue thus far, I really do appreciate your opinions and remarkably diverse perspectives.

And I love that blue Dr.I!!

Here is my take. Aviation as a practical science is barely 100 years old. It is, in my opinion, one of the first human achivements which we have a reasonably good chance of documenting thoroughly. We appear to be blowing it. Yes, there is some really great work being done - and there actually are a surprising number of truly great books (although some of them are hard to find because of small print runs). But is aviation going to be just another instance of "planned obsolesence" in the grand scheme of things? My own preference is the "between the wars" years, but my admiration for the pioneers and WW1 aviators is boundless. And I just love to hear them and see them fly. Old Rhinebeck, if you have never taken it in, is a treasure of an experience. But you don't have to go that far, as pointed out.

Please hang with us. We are peddling really hard trying to keep things going!

Dan

A group in Colorado that also keeps the WWI candle burning. It looks like they also have an upcoming event in May.

www.lafayettefoundation.org

Django's 1st paragraph is my exact thought. I have NEVER, in my 35+ years of aviation involvement, had much interest at all in WWI. The closest 'interest' is my fondness for the old Revell 1/28 & Aurora 1/48 WWI a/c kits, & that's only because they were some of the very first models I built, & the Cox "Dawn Patrol" control line a/c!

Dan et al--

Very interesting thread!

For a combination of reasons I've never had any direct involvement in aviation; for me everything (paintings; photography; modeling, etc) has been very peripheral. Would be nice if it were otherwise, but it can't be. That does not, however, mean I'm dispassionate about old airplanes; and I'll always have the proverbial "soft spot" for First World War types, because they were the ones that first intrigued me, the first I sketched, the first I modeled. Blame my dad's Veron balsa kit of a Nieuport 27 scout and his attendant borrowing of library books on WWI aviation for that. (I still have the frame of the balsa Nieuport in my loft.)

Sure, I get a thrill seeing and hearing the 40s-era stuff; having a museum full of such things five miles from home will have that effect! But, like a first love, you never entirely let go of a first passion of this sort either. And, were I in a position to enter for real what James Gilbert used to call "The Flier's World"...my choice might well be an antique type, in "lookalike" replica form. More practical by miles...and from what I've learned from a couple pilot relatives and various friends on WIX and elsewhere, just as much fun as a five-ton 40s aluminum fire-breather. If only aviation were not so beyond the majority, I bet there'd be a veritable tide of "neo-antiquers" joining in.

I think the only real problem preventing big interest--as distinct from actual involvement--in WWI flying is the simple fact that there's an irremediable disconnect from it, because ALL the Great War flyers are gone: the firsthand connection is gone and will never return. (In the same vein, note the laudable efforts of many restorers in bringing back Korean War and Vietnam-era warbirds. The WWII types of course will remain charismatic forever...but that firsthand connection is vanishing there, too. All those Bomber Command vets I knew at CWH back in the day, except one or two, are gone. The people who so appreciate a Sabre, an O-1, an A-1 or even an F-4, are the ones still with us in good numbers now; and it's only right that effort is going into those types too.)

Oh, and I did manage once to see a near-original Great War machine in the air...NAM's lovely Avro 504K, with an airframe partially of 1918 construction and rotary-powered, at the 1981 Trenton Armed Forces Day. And last year I finally lensed the all-original Fokker D.VII at Knowlton, Quebec. Kept walking past it and staring at it. Does the 1914-18 stuff catch and hold the interest of a guy born when even the F-4 wasn't new? You bet...

Cheers

S.