Warbird Information Exchange

For those of you patiently waiting for me to finish the basic inventory on these parts, here's a photo update on my progress. I've tipped seven or eight drums in the last few months and made more room for sorting tables in the hangar. My goal is to tip ten to fifteen more drums by the end of the year.







As you can see, I've got many more drums to tip and sort.


Here's a link to the Photobucket page. I've uploaded a few new images.
Thanks, Albert

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c21/a ... t%20Parts/

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Albert Stix Jr.
"Work is the curse of the drinking class"

Man, if you charged admission just to come and look and ooh and aah I'd buy a ticket!

Al, in image #2 you have some Plexiglass partial dome halves parked up along the table. I have a few sets of these, too, that had "Emerson Electric" parts tags on them. I can't read the p/n's on the tags, nor do I have any clue as to what turret these plexiglass panels came from (I suspect they were a 3-parter - two end pieces and a single center curved piece).

How about you? They were built under a USN contract by Emerson, but I can tell you from experience they are NOT for the ErCo 250 SH series nose turret for the PB4Y-2 "Privateer." They won't fit my turrets at all. I tried! Got so excited when I found these I thought I was gonna have a stroke... talk about your major buzz kill!

Anyone clue you in as to what they are from? If so, let me know. And lastly, I can't wait for your master inventory list of what "goes" from the collection that'll help re-fund your coffers for having the guts/finances/foresight to save all of this stuff.

I'm sure you've heard it before from others, but thank you for preserving this stuff. In a blink of an eye it could've gone to the metal buyers and lost to history. Good job - keep tipping the tubs and sharing your goodies with us!

Pooner,
thanks for the reply. It sounds like you may have found some plexi dome parts for the Emerson built Aero 9 nose turret as used on the Neptunes and Mercators. They are hard to come by and difficult to reproduce or replicate due to the Aluminum structure that's imbedded in the plexi construction. I've all but given up on the idea of restoring an Emerson A-15 (B-24 nose turret) or an Emerson built Sperry ball turret for display in our museum. Both types are simply too hard to find as workable projects. Instead, I'm trying to finish a deal on an Aero 9 like the one below and turn it into a display like the one I saw at the Naval Aviation Museum this Summer. (also below)





Note the strong family resemblence between the Emerson model 128 (A-31 or A-30?) installed in the six or seven B-24Ns built and the Aero 9. Follow this link and look at photos 13, 30, and 42.

http://www.shutterfly.com/progal/slides ... 095&idx=12

Thanks for the support on this project. It is fun, you never know what's going to come tumbling out of a drum but I'm over my head for sure.

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Albert Stix Jr.
"Work is the curse of the drinking class"

Wow! Ask the right question, and viola, the right reply! Thank you for the proper ID on the plexiglass panels, Albert. You are right on the money - as always. And so true on the metal inserts on these things - reminds me of a rattlesnake. I picked up a wrapped one improperly by the ends and got bitten with a metal edge through the brown butcher paper wrapping. Surprise!

Good luck on the score of an Aero 9 for the collection. Certainly is a pretty turret, and you're right - not a radical departure from the WWII turret at all. Evolution, right before our very eyes.

Don't give up completely on the A-15. You may find a nice one yet. I've seen and had a few over the years, but they are such a fragile beast inside. Once that skeletal framework gets cracked or bunged up, there's no easy way to repair it. And then there's the issue of the dome - major expense for some molded and stretched 1/4 inch plexiglass, to be sure.

The Emerson built ball turret probably is the Holy Grail of them all - don't know the production figures, but indeed a hard one to find. Like our buddy John in Wisconsin, I have this wild idea of building one up as well and have a Frankenstein looking collection of pumps, motors, holders and a couple of casting pieces. When I get a little dismayed at the pile of Briggs and Sperry cast offs on the hangar floor I can always crawl into the ErCo -4Y nose and shut the door to get my turret fix.

Nowhere near the massive collection of turret parts on this end, but let me know if your Aero 9 acquisition will need a motor driven hydraulic pack or some of the earlier referenced plexi. That's the extent of my "known" Aero cache. Would be glad to set you up. And in the interim, keep digging for a ErCo 250 SH dome for me. Found the remains of a broken one in California a month ago, and it was just heart wrenching to see it sitting there in a distressed heap. The old gal made it from Baltimore to Callie and had spent 50 years waiting for me in a warehouse until some clod dropped a load of hydraulic struts on her. I almost wept at the sight!

Keep digging, and keep us posted.

- Rob

Love that Photobucket archive, Albert. Great stuff. I can help ID only a little - the "K-25 Camera Door Back" on file page three and four is specific for the Lockheed PV-2 "Harpoon." If you'd ever like to part with it, I'd be happy to give it a good home on one of our PV-2s....

I'd asked awhile back about some switches for the ErCo nose turret panel. I'm in need of all of the electrical radium tipped switches and red breaker buttons and light as illustrated on the complete electrical management panel as shown in the first photo (this is from another nose turret of same type). Someone raided the front cover of the electrical box to get at the switches and breakers years ago, but they were nice enough to leave me the back of the box!

The main electrical "on-off" power switch is a big un and held with four screws. The others switches are two screw mount top and bottom, and the red button switches are similarly mounted. If you are going through the bins and pull aside some spares you don't need, I'll be happy to buy 'em and put 'em to use! Of all of the electrical hardware I have around here, I haven't found any of the same types for the ErCo panel. So it goes with surplus, eh?

Here's a shot of the ErCo as found. I don't think it had ever been on an airplane, as it was still mounted to what was left of the oak packing crate bottom and there was still pieces of broken and crumbled plexiglass from what was left of the dome down in the bottom of the turret, along with several pounds of dirt and packrat nests.

Last thing I need is a Mark 8 gun cradle mount, or at least the front and back castings. Someones took this as a souvenir, too... dunno why.

Anyway, makes for a fun project for those of us who like Navy Liberators. A little roomier than the Briggs B-17 or -24 ball, too... gunner sat in this thing like on the A-15 Emerson instead of "fetal position" of the other ball...

Pooner: I might have some used ones that would need some cosmetic work. They appear to be the same as the ones in the overhead panel from the Aero Commander that I ended up salvaging out. If you can get me a part number, I'll grab the panel off the trailer later this week and pop one out and see if it is the same. It appears to be the same at least visually as the smaller ones. My IPB lists them as C-6363-1-X, where the X denotes the current ratings.

Let me know if they can be of use to you.

Craig C.

Thank you, Craig! Most gracious offer. Got into the shop this afternoon and looked thru the ErCo manual for p/n data on the electrical panel needs, but it certainly isn't that detailed.

Fortunately for me, I am working with a "Mexican Blueprint" - that being another complete ErCo panel (and turret as well) that'll provide the exact specs of what I am searching for.

So, here's my electrical needs, Albert, Craig and fellow WIXies, in the event anyone might have 'em:

One Klixon 6364-0 master switch, single pole marked On-Off, radium tip four screw panel mounting
One Square D 9390-0 circuit breaker, 15 amp, red button, no radium tip single nut base mounting
Four Klixon 6363 switches, single pole marked On-Off, radium tip two screw panel mounting
Two Klixon pushbutton switch breakers, red button with "K" center, type PM-10 no radium tip and two screw panel mount
Two Klixon pushbutton switch breakers, red button with "K" center, type PM-20 no radium tip and two screw panel mount
One red light with fixed non-adjustable lense, two screw mount
One direct current relay, Allen Bradely Co., Type 6329

Of all of the WWII electrical stuff I have in the shop, oddly enough I don't have ANY of the above. Of course, I could susbstitute other period stuff, but it'd always bug me that I didn't do it 100 percent right, so the quest begins.

Anyone with the a clean used or NOS bit or two for sale or trade, I'd love to hear from you. Might as well drop me a PM so this board doesn't get too plugged with silly stuff, but I promise to post pics of the turret resto in progress if there's interest. The turret will be operable, and this is the only electrical obstacle in my way of getting this one up and moving right now.

Thanks, ya'll!

- Rob

Rob- The 6363's should have a dash number listed also. That will define the load rating of the switch. Probably the same for the other switches also. As long as you don't care about the ratings and these are just going to be non-functional, that wouldn't matter too much. It will probably be Thursday before I can get the panel off the trailer and pull the switches and see what else I can come up with off of there for you.

Craig C.

Does anyone know where to get fake gun barrels for 50 cals. We are rebuilding an A-26 and were thinking of mounting fake guns in the the nose we have gotten. No room or need for real guns. Just looking for the barrel parts to poke out the nose.

Kurt

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A-7D, the Short Little Ugly "Flyer" and A-10A Warthog, weren't called an ATTACK plane for nothing. Remember for a little relief on the ground, call your local Air Force to "Go Ugly Early"!

I found this site that may be of help - http://www.sarcoinc.com/m2mg50.html. They sell a "Barrel, Aircraft, Decorator" for $75.00 or a full aircraft barrel for $265.00

Great news on that K-25 door. I've been scratching my head on that one for months now. I thought it was for the TBM/TBF but I've never had a chance to try and fit in on the radio/gunner's side window. It makes complete sense that it's for a PV-2 because I assume the 250CE5 Martin upper turrret made by Emerson went in that plane since I've not seen much evidence that it was used in the PB4Y-1 or -2. I think Emerson built another model of the 250CE that went in the Liberator.

I've got lots of those Klixon breakers and I've seen something similar to the power switches in the photo but I'll need to pull some this week and have a closer look. I sure with I had taken more photos of my tour of the Naval Air Museum's restoration shop. They had sone some great restoration work on an ErCo nose ball turret but they were really running into a bind on the Martin nose turret for the Martin flying boat. That's got to be a hard turret to find parts for.

I have to admit, I know next to nothing about the ErCo turrets. Where where they built? Is the company still around in some form or another? Are you building the ErCo for the PB4Y-2 that I've heard is headed for the PHX area? What about the Neptune, any photos you could share?
Thanks,
Albert

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Albert Stix Jr.
"Work is the curse of the drinking class"

You guys are just great. I enjoy the ability to talk turrets and parts for our projects with like-minded troops!

SARCO in NJ is a great company to deal with, guys. Talk with Dave - he's their resident MG expert and they can set you up with original and replica barrel shrouds for the 50 cal M2 and M3 BMG. They've done some nice reproduction work. Nothing much to a barrel shroud to make a neat replica to hang off a turret or nose of the airplane, but they are an enormous amount of work to do without a CNC program as they are just darn labor intensive to drill all those holes, parkerize, etc. Anyway, they've always come up with neat stuff for me in the past. Original stuff is getting kinda pricey - be forewarned. I need 9 MG replicas alone for our PV... and that's just ONE lumpy a/c.

OK - switches that I need - anyone with 'em, please keep me in the loop! My WWII ErCo manual is a good one but it doesn't include an IPB with part numbers. My Klixon circuit breakers are 15 amp and 20 amp (and I CAN use radium tipped ones if ya'll got em.... my first panel doesn't have 'em but the book shows 'em in place). The four other single pole switches are 15 to 20 amp rated, and the main switch is probably 50 amp rated (the big relay inside the box is 100 amp). I intend to run my turret up but will not put the same load requirements to it that the Navy did back in the day...

Albert - have the guys PM or respond this forum working on the ErCo nose. I have many, many electrical and hydraulic spares to share + manuals. Bought them in a cache not on your scale but in "barrel form" years ago that came from scrappers working out of the former Litchfield NAF, PHX. Oddly, they never saved the turrets but saved the electrical and hydraulic pieces. I have two of these ErCo ball noses for the PB4Y-1 and -2; they made about 3K total on the SH models. Manufacturer was Engineering Research Co of Baltimore, MD.; same guys who ended up building up the Ercoupe 415 aeroplane for us after the war. They built some beautiful turrets.

I got lucky with my nose turrets, as Tucson and PHX were final assembly plant/install centers for B-24s and -4Ys here during the war. I suspect my turrets had been NOS units sent to AZ for fitting but never made it as the war ended. They ended up with scrap dealers; one paid $25 each for a lot of 5 of them hoping to toss them into the furnace and was PO'ed to discover electrical and hydraulic parts, armor plate and glass and the like and not 100 percent aluminum. I have a Palley's Supply catalogue from the early 1950s with turrets like these - NOS in boxes - for $250 each. Palleys and McBride later sold B-24/B-17 ball turrets new in boxes for as little as $100 each as late as the 1960s....

I have a list from GLM (Martin) detailing the dash numbers of the 250 upper turret particular to specific aircraft type. I can PM it to you or post; most people will be bored silly with this specific data stuff. Most Martin 250s look alike to one another - little differences as you know made a BIG difference to the a/c type they were mated to, the one big thing being the fire interrupter drum/profiler. The other stuff was varied between Army and Navy contracts for the need for oxygen systems, commo systems and of course another big deal - sighting systems.

I lust after a lot of your Martin goodies, too - my goal is to have the Martin in our PV-2 fully operational as well! I'm pretty close...

K-25 camera door is a nice find. Most of the remaining civil registered PVs have had that door removed as it got in the way of easy sliding of a spray tank into the a/c. Most operators removed them or cut the camera mount off and faired the glazing window opening over with sheet metal. If it doesn't irritate you I'll ID any of the items I can for you in your photo list. I'm certainly no expert on everything, but some things are pretty familiar to me.

I am hoping the ErCo turret I have (at least one of them) will end up on the PHX -4Y. It's not my bird, but belongs to a friend. Right now he is overwhelmed with costs concerning getting the a/c airworthy and down here to PHX, and it's his first warbird. The restoration part of the project is still daunting to him as he's been spending money on something he has yet to play with (welcome to warbirds, eh?) and he hasn't really had time to look into the future. Fortunately for him he's got access to a cache of the majority of the turrets for said project in my hangar (four out of six). My hope is that 15 minutes in L or R seat will fuel the disease and he'll give the nod to the restoration of said beast and will want to add back her original warts and bumps where they belong. We'll see... that's my secret Christmas wish.

I have just a few operational spares from the Aero series P2-V Neptune/Mercador but you are welcome to what I have (electric motor systems, gearboxes, etc.). I decided long ago to concentrate on WWII turrets specific to my projects or ones at hand and never got into the Neptune, though I almost bought one a few years ago. And do pass on to the boys about the Martin Navy nose turret, too - yeah, I have some internal spares... happy to help.

I learn something everytime I log on to WIX and read a few posts and yesterday was no exception. I never connected the Ercoupe and the ErCo turrets! That's really interesting information. I'll make sure I get you in contact with the guys at the Naval museum who are working on the ErCo turret down there. Unlike the USAFM, the Naval museum appears to have a stock of parts they can use for trading material. At least that was my assessment of the situation down there, I could be wrong.

I lived in Tucson for ten years, based out of Avra Valley Airport, and became friends with the IA who did the annuals on my Stearman. He had some position of authority at the B-24 finishing facility at Tucson for the durartion of the war and actually rented the facility from War Assets after WWII ended. He told me many stories about the brand new, ferry time only B-24 that went right up to Kingman and Lichfield Park. He flew on several of those delivery flights. Had we only known how rare and sought after this stuff would be! Incidently, the guy who headed Emerson Electric Mfg Co. here in town is also the same guy who left before the war's end to take the head position at the War Assets Administration. He became the principle architect of the massive scrap drive program. Based on some preliminary research, I suspect that the Army and Navy wanted these massive reserves of aircraft to be scrapped ASAP as did the military industrial complex that built them.

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Albert Stix Jr.
"Work is the curse of the drinking class"

WoW! Can you say Jealous!@

Thats a mountain of gold you have there! Im lost for words, okay maybe I have a few, what to trade?

It's nice to hear somebody thinks it's a mountain of gold. My wife thinks it's a mountain of stinky.......well let's just say the word she would use rhymes with ship.

Trade eh? I'm looking for parts to outfit my father's SNJ-5 with dummy gun barrels in the wing and nose and a flexible mount in the tail. I'm looking for a gunsight and reflector glass right now for the cockpit. Skyraider parts are rarely ever turned down. Beyond that stuff, we are mostly into antiques. Here's a link to our "badly in need of an update and rebuild" website. Thanks for looking. "We like old junk"

http://www.historicaircraftrestorationmuseum.org/

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Albert Stix Jr.
"Work is the curse of the drinking class"