P51 wreck

alain Sandoz · **Posted:** Fri Jul 30, 2004 6:09 am

Hi !

Several weeks ago I dived on a P51 wreck on south of France near Toulon (Giens). This plane was certaintly lost during operation Dragoon. Have anybody some informations on it. Beautiful dive by the way... Apologize my poor english.

DaveM2 · **Posted:** Fri Jul 30, 2004 6:16 am

Alain

What is the condition of the wreck ? Any chance of finding a data plate ?

You can try asking here as well
http://disc.server.com/Indices/37919.html

regards
Dave

alain Sandoz · **Posted:** Fri Jul 30, 2004 6:34 am

Hi Dave !

No any chance, this wreck is well known by the divers since the sixties, and many thins are missing right now.

Here is a link to a french diving site, 2 photos a the bottom.

http://madrague2.free.fr/plongee.html

Greatings from Switzerland and have a good day

Alain

mrhenniger · **Posted:** Fri Jul 30, 2004 6:40 am

Thanks for this Alain! Let us know if you find out any more about the airframe (or waterframe now I suppose).

Mike

DaveM2 · **Posted:** Fri Jul 30, 2004 7:34 am

Alain

I have always been curious to know if there is much wreck diving in Switzerland...are you involved with divers in your home country ? . Do you know if any sonar surveys have been done in Swiss lakes ? . A lot of aircraft crashed in Switzerland during WW2 and I think many hit the lakes...because it was safer than trying to crash land in the mountains.
I know several complete aircraft were salvaged in the fifties/ sixties...but were unfortunately scrapped. These included a complete Lancaster and a couple of B-17s. One ' Lonesome Polecat' survived until the seventies, before being cut up :cry:

What chance of finding further complete aircraft ?
On another subject there was reported a few years ago that a King Tiger tank had been discovered at the edge of a Swiss lake as well .

regards
Dave

Cees Broere · **Posted:** Fri Jul 30, 2004 7:58 am

Dave,

Parts of that B-17 have found their way to the Netherlands. Three engines including engine cowlings, parts of fuselage skinning complete with the name: Lonesome Polecat, the throttle pedestal, pilot's seat and some smaller parts have been in display at the CRASH-museum at Lisserbroek for years.

Cheers

Cees

alain Sandoz · **Posted:** Fri Jul 30, 2004 8:42 am

Thank you for your response !

I am a diver connected with others here, I am there is nothing left to be discover here in our lakes, most of them have been scanned and are well known. But your response about the B17 is very intersting I have never heard that story and push me to learn more about it. Concerning the King Tiger, I don’t believe its’right, any german troops enter the Swiss territory during WWII. The only King Tiger is in a static display in Thoune.

Cheers Alain

Cees Broere · **Posted:** Fri Jul 30, 2004 10:04 am

Alain,

Has anyone ever investigated the Heinkel He-177 wreck which still lies complete at the bottom of the Bodensee?

Some years ago I saw a sonar image showing an intact aiframe which was incredibly identifiable as a "greiff" by just looking at the image.

That would be one of the major recoveries of this century.

:roll:

Teaser

There is an aircraft wreck that has been discovered recently in a big lake in Holland. It is ten metres long and rising about a metre from the lake bed. Any suggestions

?

Also there are another three locations found these past months indicating substantial aircraft wrecks.

If all goes well, a Halifax together with missing crewmembers will be recovered within the next few months. Locals raised 25.000 euros to cover some of the total costs.

Cheers

Cees

(hoping to refresh the WIX-feeling)

Steve T · **Posted:** Fri Jul 30, 2004 2:46 pm

Hi Cees--

I'll bite...Hmm. 10m=33' give or take, which suggests any of several fighter/attack types. Dare one hope for a Tiffy??

S.

DaveM2 · **Posted:** Fri Jul 30, 2004 7:07 pm

Alain

My mistake about the King Tiger...I was thinking of Austria ! . You mention Swiss wrecks are well known....can you tell us what types they are...and also condition ?

Cees.... Come to mention it I remember some of the B-17 was saved.... a bit odd it ended up in Holland !

Dave

Cees Broere · **Posted:** Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:39 am

Steve T wrote:

Hi Cees--

I'll bite...Hmm. 10m=33' give or take, which suggests any of several fighter/attack types. Dare one hope for a Tiffy??

S.

Steve,

Well we think the same that it could be a fighter, but we will have to contain our enthusiasm until we get to the location and send divers down, but it shows what's still waiting to be recovered.

Dave,

We were also very surprised to learn about the B-17 parts. The problem for us was that the then owner visited our museum years ago and mentioned that he had the parts from Switzerland and were stored in his basement in an old house in the centre of Amsterdam (well, Mike Henninger knows now how cramped those houses can be) and one of our volunteers didn't believe him so the visitor left and went to the other museum. They took the trouble to at least have a look to check and were ecstatic when they saw the parts.

Needless to say our volunteer is regularly confronted with this "action" and what could have been on display in our museum :oops:

Cheers

Cees

mrhenniger · **Posted:** Sat Jul 31, 2004 10:01 am

Cees Broere wrote:

Steve T wrote:

(well, Mike Henninger knows now how cramped those houses can be)

How did they pull that off? Did they take them inside panel-by-panel and rivet-by-rivet? :shock:

Regards,

Mike

Cees Broere · **Posted:** Sat Jul 31, 2004 12:10 pm

Mike,

I think you guessed it, but in the end it was there. This gave me the idea that whatever strange or unrelastic tip or rumour comes my way, I go to see it. Better safe than sorry.

Cees

Scott Rose · **Posted:** Sat Jul 31, 2004 1:17 pm

Cees Broere wrote:

Needless to say our volunteer is regularly confronted with this "action" and what could have been on display in our museum :oops:

Heh, thats right up there with the executive at M&M/Mars who said they couldn't use M&M Candies in the movie E.T., so the producers used Reese's Pieces instead...

alain Sandoz · **Posted:** Sat Jul 31, 2004 5:32 pm

Very interesting story, thank you for sharing these informations.
Dave, most of the intersting wrecks in the swiss lakes are ships, so to see some planes we have to go to the south of France. At that time, I have no more informations on my mystery P51…

Have a good day (its’ National Day here in Switzerland):partyman:

Alain

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