Warbird Information Exchange

My mate rattled off to me tonight over 300 wrecks in various states thruout oz and i was startled...

I have some maybe semi potential leads on following types

Spitfires
Kittyhawks
B-26
B-17
Boomerang
Beauforts / fighters

Wrecks thru out oz but the catch is according to laws nowdays im not sure the government in OZ makes it ?? illegal to touch or recover the wrecks?

Does anyone else know better regarding recovering wrecks in oz after 60years? but neverless some do exisit i assume even tho after 60years of exposure in oz with our rain sun wind and people...

Sabre

Sabre,

Wow 300 wrecks, including kittyhawks! wow if only I had the time and money id be there in a second to see the old bird. Im unsure about the goverment letting anyone tkaing parts/ the entire plane. Might be best to contact someone in the gouverment and see that they say. If they don't want the airplanes anymore they might just had the rights to them over to you!

Good luck.

_________________
Cheers,

Glenn Maude

Co-Owner of: http://www.rcafkittyhawk.com
A website dedicated to the P-40 AK803/1034

Hey,

I agree with Glenn, I'd want to get ahold of someone in the Aussie government.

You might be able to find out some answers, or at least who you should contact by e-mailing a minister from Foreign Affairs and Trade, or maybe a defense minister. I found some possible contacts on:

www.directory.gov.au

Good luck. As for how much of a fight they'd put up to keep australian plane wrecks in Australia, I don't know. I do know that there's a very strong warbird population there and I'd imagine if they knew of these 300 wrecks, that they'd already have claimed them and picked them up.

Peace,

David

Rest assured that the planes have been recoverd back in the day by aussies who are into warbirds.

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Hang The Expense

Sorry, you mate's talking rubbish.

All the 'good' stuff's been picked up - just read up rather than believing a mate...

Exporting from Australia's also a bit of a no-no, but does depend on the circs.

The wrecks are now all in sheds around Australia (and elsewhere) - some of it's flying again, some, Beauforts and Beaufighters are due to fly again some day, but the easy bit was gathering the wrecks - the hard bit is rebuilding them. Some of the sheds are called the RAAF Museum, and AWM. One is the NMUSAF's 'new' Beaufighter.

The pros have already done it.

_________________
James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com

Hate to dispell the myth but MY mate who is a warbird restorer, owner , businessman and collector has seen many of the 300 wrecks he stated as he has travelled throut oz extensively in warbird parts hunting etc and he is indeed been lucky to walk on some that other people ie other collectors or even people have never FOUND or seen yet.

I can mention he has seen B-17s and spitfires in places that no one would beleive but i will agree he does say some of these are wrecks beyond any hope but others well lets say they are good but cant be recovered due to laws he says now in place ...

Ah, yes, 'my mate'. If I had a penny for every good story I've been told in the last 20 years of warbird journalism... No offence, but 'my mate' simply isn't credible Names, dates, places and track record is. If (or when) he (or she) pulls them out of the bush and gets them to fly or rebuilt, I'll be first to tip my hat to him or her. But talk's cheap. Even I get paid poorly for it.

The real current challenge is the restoration. There's currently ample airframes already available for serious restorers of every type with, perhaps, the exception of Spitfires. Otherwise don't worry about what's 'out there' (alleged or not) - focus on the help and resources required to complete rebuilds currently underway, rather than dreamboating. Without even trying:

>Beaufort to fly in Queensland.

>RAAF Museum Mosquito, Point Cook.

>P-39 in the CJFM and P-38 in SAAM.

>Wangaratta's production lines - P-38, P-39, P-40, Kingfisher, Ki-61, etc.

>The work of the RAAFA Museum, WA.

>Moorabbin's under-resourced but magnificent collection.

>the work by Queensland's Air Museum, and many others.

>There's also DC-2s and Beaufighters in store awaiting serious commitment to rebuild. Why scour the outback for things that may be there? These folks would all appreciate help, and these aren't 'might happen' projects but ones happening now.

Just a view.

_________________
James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com

probelm is i am under my mate word not to reveal any of the said locations bar the aircraft type HE knows and HAs seen for himself over the last 20years

I think your confused over flying bird and im saying WRECKS that hasnt been touched by man since end of ww2.

I have had on his word a B-17 located up north crashed by fully intact even in late 1980s.

Spitfires dumped in ww2 and now under a few metres of earth in the country that no ones knows about.

If you think this is hard to beleive? then explain how did they pull a intact and minor damaged FW-190 out of russian forest in 1990s that was untouched in all essence?

THis is what im getting at.

Ive flown over australia a few times and i can say that you could have hundreds if not thousands of wrecks from ww2 and some are unknown still to this day maybe.

Also my mate knows of other wrecks around the place but im not at liberty to reveal these yet. Once he has a chance and can go visit them in detail he might reveal more to me.

My mate has built a few warbird himself over the last 20years from wrecks and parts and he has a nice collection in oz.. he has resources skills and knowledge and contacts in most corners of oz also in warbird land...

Your excitement over being in possession of 'privileged' information is obscuring my point which is just the good old 'a warbird in hand is worth 200 'in the bush'." It also seems a good idea to me to sort out the ones we've got rather than getting more, but hey, it's a free world. Off you go.

_________________
James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com

If your friend really knows of such hulks remaining from his explorations and involvement in the Warbird movement he probably also knows what the legal situations are, and what the recovery options are in terms of the advice you are seeking in anycase.

I would have to agree with JDK thats there are plenty of existing projects and volunteer museum collections to lend a hand to, and would question how many substantial wrecks really remain in Australia "awaiting recovery", there are many many crash sites, and at least the 300 you refer to, but most do not retain much structure of rebuild value having been subject to crash recovery during the war, or significant impact destruction in the first place, or deterioration from souvenir hunters, scrappies, bush fires and the elements, and certainly few have sufficient remains on site to yield a restorable hulk, other than an identity for "data plate" reproductions?

Having said that Victoria's ongoing drought in recent years has exposed a near complete wartime Wirraway ditched in an inland (salt) lake, despite being apparantly "intact" I am not sure of its integrity to survive removal or restoration or display "as is" and am unware of the current future planned for it.

The laws covering aircraft wrecks in Australia are largely State based Heritage laws unless the crash is on Commonwealth land or in the sea, in which case Commonwealth Heritage Law will prevail, (In some case both Commonwealth and State Heritage Laws may prevail depending on the wrecks significance and source).


http://bar.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/epabca1999588/s528.html

Fatality Wrecks may also be subject to Veterans Affairs and War Graves
protection.

Export of wrecks or complete historic aircraft is governed by the Federal
Moveable Cultural Heritage Act.

[url]http://www.environment.gov.au/heritage/publications/movable-annualreport01/index.h
tml[/url]

WA, QLD, NT, NSW and Victoria are all active in protecting known aircraft
wrecks with investigations in the past regarding attempted recoveries of
aircraft from Lake Victoria NSW, Darwin surrounds, and Lakes Entrance (an infamous theft of the major parts of P40 in a swamp "during" an official RAAF recovery, and using the RAAF recovery equipment??? )


http://www.nt.gov.au/nreta/heritage/maritime/shipwrecks/index.html




examples of this legislation being in place is shown in relation to the
recent discovery of an intact WW2 RAAF Wirraway in a lake in Victoria.

[url]http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:SxXd_wRfif0J:www.aima.iinet.net.au/publication
s/newsletters/docs/NLv24n2y05.pdf+crash+wreck+aircraft+list&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=8&gl=au[/u
rl]







There are many known wreck sites surviving in Australia with visible
aircraft remains, but these individual wreck sites are well short of the
components required to constitute a "recovery" and at best most would only provide some parts for pattern or components, rather than sufficient remains for a full restoration.

There is a famous 30 page A3 print out of RAAF co-ordinates of WW2 crash sites that every man and his dog copied during the 1980s and which has been scanned and uploaded onto the web, although even more elaborate websites with lists have since been developed.

http://home.st.net.au/~dunn/ozcrashes.htm



[url]http://www.museum.wa.gov.au/collections/maritime/march/fallenangels/silvano/A24-00
1%20paper2.doc.[/url]

[url]http://wwwehlt.flinders.edu.au/archaeology/research/publications/MAMARS/MAMARS_PDF
/Julie_Ford_Thesis.pdf[/url]

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20th Century - The Age of Manned Flight
"from Wrights to Armstrong in 66 years -WOW!"

I do love when this topic comes up.

As already mentioned in the topic thread the number of complete, or semi complete wrecks left just lying around Oz, can be counted on 2 hands and all of those are protected by various State and Federal Legislation.

I spent 12 years in the Northern Territory, Northern West Australia and North Queenland, and during that time, I did come across a large number of aircraft resting places (last count was 150 plus). Yes these were made up of types such as Spitfires, Kittyhawks, Beaufighters, B-17, B-24's, etc.

The information on the reports mentioned in one of the above posts is iffy in the extreme, the positions in most cases being up to 20 miles out, not bad in it's day, but just which way is it 20 miles out (your lovely grid square of 2 square miles suddenly got a bugger load bigger), and your search just went from a week into a month or two.

A few, and I mean a few, had what I consider to be parts worth salvaging (if only for interest more than anything else, like a complete frame of a Kittyhawk canopy (I left in situ) etc), the remainder where of Historical value only. Time has not been kind to the wrecks in Northern Australia, being both in mostly salty humid areas, and in fire prone areas.

What was worth salvaging was done so many years ago (1960-1980's had big pushes into the scrub to obtains parts worth having). In some cases even that which would not normally be taken has been, such as skinning etc.

I have enclosed a couple of links to photos which best shows the condition of many wrecks in Northern Australia (some of the Wrecks I have visited and identified), and shows some of the stuff you'll have to walk through to find these things.

I think the funnest thing about this is that someone tried to sell me the positions of these wrecks, as they were worth lots of money.

anyhow enjoy the photos.

http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/image. ... 64826d.jpg
http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/image. ... 561001.jpg
http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/image. ... 972616.jpg
http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/image. ... 439cd3.jpg

Buz

Buz,

One mans treasure is another mans junk?

I once heard of a major restorer in Australia being "lured" from one end of the country to the other to visit a crashed "xxxx" bomber, of the type he was restoring, on the statement "there is a crashed XXXX on this farm, and its all still there", after flying down and being driven to the farm, he questioned his guide - "so where is it" to which he was told - "here, we are standing on it" a with a sprinkling of melted aluminium visible in the ground, - it was all there, - there was'nt sufficient left for anyone to have ever bothered to have taken it away, but it was worth zip to the restorer, who was very displeased with his flight costs from one end of the country to the other to inspect this rare find of parts.....

While I suspect there is the odd usable piece sitting in a few of the wreck sites, (like your p40 canopy) I think your experiences in NT NWA and NQ would be typical of wreck sites around the country.

Obviously there have been wrecks that have yielded valuable parts for the B25 in the Darwin Museum, the Beaufort in Qld and the B24 in Victoria, but the wrecks themselves were not viable projects, or even good "starter kits".

It surprising that people try to and sell such information, as I believe a Defence Force list of known wrecks with GPS type references has been doing the rounds since the 1980s', although as you say these might be inaccurate co-ordinates.



I recently found the list online, although its formatting / wordwrap on this particular site is very poor compared to an earlier version I had seen online, however it seems to be scan, word for word of the 30 page A3 list I referred to in my previous post.

http://www.users.on.net/~tosty/AIR/wreck.htm

regards

Mark Pilkington

_________________
20th Century - The Age of Manned Flight
"from Wrights to Armstrong in 66 years -WOW!"

Have to agree, all the realistst know the usable stuff was harvested years ago. Mate's mates talking sugar by the sound

One possibility might be Iron Range:

1. Intact P-40 and major portions of Marauder recovered.

2. Secondary strip in complex reclaimed by jungle.

3. Aircraft burials reportedly occured.

4. Area of main base, except for runway, hidden by jungle.

5. On private property, exploration not allowed.

6. Large land area involved.