Warbird Information Exchange

does anyone know if any info exists on bell aircraft tooling/material numbers...

i am looking to make flanging dies and i only have numbers like 50H5-5 and Q184-21 Q180-19 etc its not critical bit some other material is just referred to by number like 55E5-1 bell standard and there is no tensile strength etc

are there any books available?

Those numbers most likely represent standard tool profiles and sizes. As an example, the Q184-21 might represent a hole flare of a certain flare angle, with the -21 being the finished diameter of the flare. If you have a drawing view with the callout that you can post, we can probably figure it out pretty quick.

yes they represent standard bell aircraft tooling/material, for flanged holes there are no diameters no flange angle or length which makes it hard when dealing with bent parts.

Ok, the designations you called out are an industry standard way of calling specific parts features. While the standard codes are company specific, every company uses them, but there is no interchange between companys, and each has their own method of coding them.

Looking at the drawing section, the Q184 looks to be a combination of a an aircraft flare with an automotive flare. Hole size radius is probably listed as the dash number with no decimal, meaning that anything over a single digit is greater than a 1 inch radius. I the case of the -18 or -19, the finished hole radius would be 1.8 or 1.9 inches. With some careful measuring on a good printout, you should be able to check. By using known dimensions, you can check via scaling the unknown ones to verify this. If you have any parts with flared or flanged holes on hand, you should be able to compare the part to the drawing and verify pretty easy.

Moving to the 50H5 holes... Based on the drawing, I would bet that it's a callout for spotfacing and slight countersinking the part to set a bulkhead fitting at hose locations. Check the drawings for the fuel line installations or the IPB, and I bet you find bulkhead fittings in those locations. Again, you can use the same comparison techniques to verify.

I would also suspect that with the number of P-39's that have been and are under restoration, that at least one of the shops has data in their stash.

by measuring original parts i know the -19 or -21 is not the diameter unfortunately.

i have tried caf, precision, pioneer etc no luck yet. i was hoping there might be a technical reference book or something, this stuff is not even in the repair manual

If you have the measurements for a -19 and a -21, and have the profile, we can probably determine the coding from that.

i will try to get all measurements but a lot of the plane is damaged as you can see below so its hard to be 100% accurate, this is the nose section im working on now:
off this plane:

most holes are a bit squashed:


i want to use whatever is still straight, most of the extrusions are good but most of the frames are bent but when i know the right sizes i will press them and put them on the new fwd webs


it would be good to just find a book or some type of chart showing everything that bell used... do you know if this would be in any archives in the US?

i really think the numbers refer to specific tooling like a flange die/punch...and that the numbers have nothing to do with size but are more like a catalog number

Please tell us more about the Bell aircraft. Where was it recovered from? When? Which one is it? Where are you located, etc

that one is 41-6978 it flew from Selfridge in MI pre-war with the 39th & did testing with the NACA for drop tanks / self sealing tanks and after December 7th it was sent to the pacific with the 12th FS where it flew patrols between Kiribati (Christmas island) and Vanuatu, it crashed at Efate Vanuatu in November 1942, the pilot Lt Marion Sapp bailed out to low and was killed.

apparently the engine had gone way past tbo and a piston came through the side of it.

It was recovered from Vanuatu, being restored in Australia with two others

Christmas Island before the accident

After the accident

If you can come up with the measurements for two different sizes of each style hole, and the prints for the parts, we can derive the coding and develop the sizing table. You have to remember that most of the coding like this was done for two reasons...cut short the drafting time for the part and for production speed. During the war. the least skilled and the newest people would be started on the simplest work. Flanging and flaring holes would have been this type work.

As to the coding info, I've never run into a standard feature callout that did not relate to some sort of standard dimension...1/32, 1/16/, 1/8, 1/10 ect. We just need to figure out what Bell used for each of these standards, and they don't have to be the same.

Neat discussion, and it jogged a memory. I have a friend who is the grand son of the guy who ran Bell's experimental department in WWII. He probably won't know answers to this, but based on his aviation background and some family still around, he might be able to find someone who has some of this knowledge. It might take me a while to get in touch with him, but I will contact him and ask what he knows.

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thanks FF anything helps

so Q184-6 seems to be 1.7960" inside diameter with a radius bead around it that is 2.8170"
Q184-1 seems to be 1.3520" inside diameter with a 45 degree flange from 1.7545" outer diameter if that makes sense

also with that original rib there are two lightening holes (right side), p/n manual shows 5 holes and the actual drawing shows 2 on the left none on the right..nightmare