Warbird Information Exchange

My folks were born and raised in eastern Tennessee and we went there each year during the summer. One year in the 70s, an RF-4 flown by Luftwaffe pilots slammed into Holston Mountain. I'm pretty sure it was an RF-4 as I remember clearly seeing film pieces lying around, even after they had bulldozed the remains into a pit. The trees were still cut cleanly from where it came in. When we saw the field, one of the fire guys happened by and said he'd been in on the crash recovery. They never found much of the crew. That of course really stuck with me the way he'd said it...
I've search a LOT to find more info and turned up nothing on the plane or the pilots. My folks says they remember that it had taken off from Shaw AFB. We went back years later, the site had of course grown over, but there was a plaque there by the road.
My uncle worked the TV relay station from the Tri-Cities area to beam into the Stoney creek area, and was there the night it crashed and heard the whole thing happen.
Does anyone have more info on this?

_________________
Life member, 91st BG Memorial Association
Owner, 1944 Willys MB #366014
Former REMF (US Army, O3)

P-51,

I live about 12 miles from Holston Mountain and remember the crash which was one of many on that mountain. My big brother was a controller at Tri-Cities airport nearby, I'll try to get some info from him.
If I'm not mistaken, the F-4 had come from the east over the mountain and turned around to go back when it just failed to top the mountain.
The latest victims were five preachers in a Beech A-36 who took off from Elizabethton, overgross, downwind, into rising terrain in scuzzy weather. They joined the many, including a DC-3 and B-25 to crash on the Holston range.

Steve G

Thanks to my good friend Bill Peake who has an excellent book out on the F-4:

It was RF-4C 66-0460, which was assigned to the 363rd TRW, 33rd TRS (tail code JO) and the date was 1 Oct 1976.

HTH! Mark

You probably know where that TV relay station is, then. My uncle ran that at the time of the crash, it was less than a half mile away. My folks say that a USAF Colonel came to talk to him about what he'd heard at the time and agreed that if they had just been a few hundred feet higher, they would have plowed right through where he was. Sadly, he recently passed away so I can't ask him about the details. My parents sent me news items about that recent crash that killed those preachers. During my search I found a lot of crashes noted on Holston Mountain. Do you know where the crash site for the B-25 is? My folks still have a house on a Hollow off of Stony Creek, and I've been there a few times in the past few years (I live in the Pacific NW now). I wouldn't mind going to look for the remains of that Mitchell the next time I'm up that way. Thanks, Mark! The funny thing is even with the numbers, I still can find nothing anywhere on this on line. You'd think with all the wreck chasing info, there would be something on this as the crash site is almost right next to a road. I do know the two pilots were Germans, I recall the plaque said that.

_________________
Life member, 91st BG Memorial Association
Owner, 1944 Willys MB #366014
Former REMF (US Army, O3)

P-51,

Don't know the B-25 location, but a local retired newscaster has spun tales about it in hangar flying conversation. I'll try to find out something.

Steve G

I asked my dad about some of the crashes in the area, this is what he recalled:

The first crash was in the early '50s when a private plane fell out of the sky and landed in Stony Creek just above and to the left of the last bridge, now a culvert, that crosses Stony Creek when starting over the mountain. This is on the Holston side of the creek, Two or three people killed.

A DC 3 owned by ET&WNC short lived airline crashed almost head on into the Holston about half way up the mountain on the Bristol side. Was about straight across the mountain from where the first plane crashed. All aboard were killed. I saw this crash. The site is just above where the old Scout camp, Camp Tom Howard was. This was around 1959 I think but could have been in the mid '50s. I flew on this airline once.

A navy plane crashed near Double Springs around 1960. This is where the Holston and Cross Mountain meet. I never got to this site. Don't have any info on this crash.

A pane flew straight into the Holston near the top on the Bristol side in the early '60s I think. This was just west of the F4 site near where the range station is located. This could have been the B25. I never got to the site. I have never heard that it was a B25 or much of anything about this crash.

Sometimes in the late 60s or early 70's a private plane crashed in the road to the TV station about a quarter mile from where the road forks off from the road going to the fire tower. One killed. We were at this site the next day and it was not a pretty site.

The F4 was next. Now that I think of it Chalmer (my uncle) said he called the airport tower to report what he had heard and they told him that they had just lost a plane on radar. Guess that's why they found it so quick.

The Preachers crash was pretty close to the first crash.

_________________
Life member, 91st BG Memorial Association
Owner, 1944 Willys MB #366014
Former REMF (US Army, O3)

New guy here originally from Johnson City, TN . I only recently found out info about this incident so I wanted to revive this thread. In the early eighties, my friends showed me some wreckage in a cow pasture that I thought at the time was from an army jeep or something as I was about 10 years old. Didn't think much about until I saw a house being built in close proximity to this years later (1991), and I asked another buddy of mine who lived near if he thought it was still there. It was and to this day it is in my dad's garage.
This piece turned out to be an outboard portion of the left wing at the fold (where the tip shows pronounced anhedral). It is roughly 2' x 3' and has an intact placard with a part # and the label: aircraft type F-4. Although my interest was now really piqued, when I told my uncle about it, he was only mildly interested, that is until I showed him. My uncle was a Vietnam veteran and a Lead Sled driver whom I idolized. He then gave me a contact for the Air Force safety office out in CA where records were kept. I then sent them photos and coordinates from a GS map asking about any info they could provide. They responded that if I could give them the date of the incident, they could release info. Well great.
Now with the Internet and all this connectivity wonder if Boeing (who acquired McDonnell Douglas) might have records to connect a part serial # with an aircraft serial#? I guess we'll see....
By the way, this part was found more than 10 statute miles from the wreckage, so it may not be related. However, the quest for more knowledge has been renewed and I have discovered this very cool forum.

Photo and history of 66-0460 courtesy the Forgotten Jets site:




Edited to add info on two other crashes:

Sounds like Southeast Airlines DC-3 N18941:
http://aviation-safety.net/database/rec ... 19590108-0


Maybe this one? From a newspaper story on the Southeast DC-3

http://www3.gendisasters.com/tennessee/ ... ,-jan-1959

_________________

All right, Mister Dorfmann, start pullin'!
Pilot: "Flap switch works hard in down position."
Mechanic: "Flap switch checked OK. Pilot needs more P.T." - Flight report, TB-17G 42-102875 (Hobbs AAF)

Wow. I apologize for not being near pictures of the wing component, but the U.S. Insignia as I recall is visible with olive drab background, and the bottom is white. Honeycomb and zinc chromate in between. If 460 was wearing the same livery as in your pic, then it may well be from this bird. Thanks for the pic!

Also found this link.
http://tennesseemarkers.wikidot.com/f4- ... e-memorial

I have all the info about the F-4 accident including a copy of the official accident report.
PM me if you want a copy or higher quality photos

Wreckage still remains at the crash site!

RF-4C Phantom Date of Crash: 10/1/1976

Summary from the Official report:

Aircraft impacted Holston Mountain in deteriorating weather killing both Luftwaffe crew. The RF-4C was on a recon mission (low level visual navigation in mountains) to Bristol, Tennessee where IFR was canceled and VFR initiated to the planned low-level route. The aircraft entered clouds at 4,200’ MSL and impacted the northwest shoulder of a heavily timbered hillside. The crew did not eject and were fatally injured. Mishap flight (call sign “Conny 36”) had reported to traffic control at 6,000’ and requested low-level into VMC while in holding pattern at Holston Mountain. Conny 36 was cleared to 3,600’ and cancelled IFR 3 NM east of Tri-City Airport and crashed 2 minutes later. The RF-4 had reported 5 to 8 miles visibility just 90 seconds before the crash but apparently entered overcast. Configuration was 2 external 370 gallon wing tanks and 1 600 gallon center line tank. Impact was left wing low and slight nose down attitude. Flight control systems were examined and found to be operating normally. Tear down was done on two instruments to investigate possible failure: AOA indicator and Accelerometer. AOA was indicating 10 units at time of crash. Accelerometer indicated +5G and -1G. Fuel/Oil/Hyd analysis all normal. Cause was determined to be deviation from briefed procedures (descending below minimum vectoring altitude while still in IMC) and cancelling IFR in weather which did not permit continued flight into VMC. Also, the deteriorating WX was not reported to the crew.

The crash site is located at: 36° 26.848 W 082° 06.788

Newspaper Report:

From the October 4th, 1976 Elizabethton newspaper, we learn "Two German Air Force officers were killed instantly when the US Air Force reconnaisance jet they were flying crashed into Holston Mountain near here, authorities said. The wreakage was located early Saturday morning just over the the Carter County line where it had broken up badly on impact and was strewn over a wide area. Authorities said the supersonic jet, an RF-4C, also known as a Phantom, was manufactured only recently and carrying highly sophisticated radar and photographic systems in its nose. The jet was said to be on a routine low-level flight from Shaw Air Force Base in Sumter, SC when it disappeared from the Air Force radar around 4PM in the vicinity of Holston Mountain."

Directions to the crash site:

http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM75 ... ountain_TN

Geocache "Phantom in the forest" brings you to the actual crash site where an engine was left to mark the spot.

There is monument along Panhandle Road (at N36°26.793 W82°07.026) in memory of the two pilots, First Lt. Kurt Schnurer (24) and Cadet Werner Michelberger (26), killed in the crash.

The location is reached off Highway TN91 via a steep ten mile drive up Panhandle Road, which is a combination of gravel and asphalt.
site is located according to waymark at
N 36° 26.848 W 082° 06.788
17S E 400244 N 4034156

FYI if you need information about old crash sites please check out the wreckchasing message board
http://pacaeropress.websitetoolbox.com/


There is a thread about the RF-4C on Holston
http://pacaeropress.websitetoolbox.com/ ... 1268895442

There is another known F-4 crash site in TN located on the Snake Den Ridge Trail, Great Smoky Mountains National Park, Tenn.
The Snake Den Ridge connects Cosby Campground with the Appalachian Trail, climbing 5.3 miles to the Smokies’ high elevation peaks. Just before the connection with the A.T., at mile 5, the trail passes the site where an F-4 Phantom collided with the mountain in 1984. Wreckage was scattered over 20 acres, and you can still find pieces of debris near the trail.

Thanks to all for the outstanding information.