Odd P-38 ebay auction.

[Mike Bates]

Just saw this and seems really odd or a scam.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/P-38F-Lightning ... 339067b963

Mike

[hang the expense]

That is Pat Epps in the picture. The bird is Glacier Girl

[hang the expense]

A cool six mil for a busted p-38? I don't think so.

[Mike Bates]

The buy it now is only $600.00.

Mike

[hang the expense]

Well by all means buy it.

[Steve Nelson]

I was trying to figure out exactly what is being sold, then finally found this in the "Item Specifics" section:

There are 5 P-38F Lightning airplanes in the ice cap. You will get one as is. It needs total restoration.

The selling price is $6,000,000

6 million American dollars.

Exactly who "owns" the aircraft these days? I assumed they were technically the property of the Danish Gov't, who could grant or sell salvage rights as they saw fit.

SN

[Robbie Stuart]

SCAM!!

[cooper9411]

I was trying to figure out exactly what is being sold, then finally found this in the "Item Specifics" section:

There are 5 P-38F Lightning airplanes in the ice cap. You will get one as is. It needs total restoration.

The selling price is $6,000,000

6 million American dollars.

Exactly who "owns" the aircraft these days? I assumed they were technically the property of the Danish Gov't, who could grant or sell salvage rights as they saw fit.

Y








SN

You assumption is correct. 6 million would be more than enough to not only salvage the remaining 5 P-38's but possibly even parts/pieces of the 2 B-17's. Just my opinion!

[CoastieJohn]

I was trying to figure out exactly what is being sold, then finally found this in the "Item Specifics" section:

There are 5 P-38F Lightning airplanes in the ice cap. You will get one as is. It needs total restoration.

The selling price is $6,000,000

6 million American dollars.

Exactly who "owns" the aircraft these days? I assumed they were technically the property of the Danish Gov't, who could grant or sell salvage rights as they saw fit.

Y








SN

You assumption is correct. 6 million would be more than enough to not only salvage the remaining 5 P-38's but possibly even parts/pieces of the 2 B-17's. Just my opinion!

Having personally been involved in going up there 3 times and seeing "the money" for those CG missions that went up there....it ain't cheap and it ain't easy. I would suggest $6 mil may not be enough to do the P-38's.....forget the B-17's. What will make or break the $6 mil ceiling is how quickly you can (1) confirm finding each one and (2) how quickly you can get each one up and transported while not compromising safety. The equipment, tech personnel, pre-planning, transportation to/from, time on the ice and post-mission stand down will melt the Visa card(s) faster than an ex-wife. If you have to search for a single plane, that costs money. You will need to know your daily costs just to be there. How many days it takes is the unknown variable. Every day on the ice costs money in good weather or bad weather, searching, confirming, melting, disassembly, hoisting, transporting, etc, etc. Then you will have support people back in the states and/or Kulusuk to coordinate comms, overnight parts/pieces, unscheduled logistics, etc. Your workable weather window is also short. Maybe early June thru earlier October. If using them, Air Greenland ($$) has been closing up charter flights around Oct 1st unless you make arrangements.

There are several ways to skin the cat if you have deep pockets. If I was going to tackle that 5 plane idea, I would do it in two phases. Phase 1 would send up a skeleton crew first to confirm the location of each plane. By confirm I mean GPR it, melt to it, take pics that confirm 100% it is a P-38, then repeat the process for the next plane until all of their locations are confirmed 100%. From my perspective, until you can confirm a plane, you're going on the premise you think you know where it's at based on your homework. If it isn't there, you struck out and have to keep looking or go on to your next spot. Once (if) you have confirmed all 5 planes, you then think about Phase 2 which is an all out effort to extricate the airframes. That may take place the following year depending on how long it took you to confirm all 5 airframes and at what level (and where) you pre-staged. There is a gamble no matter how you approach it. The idea is to do it smartly and minimize your risk...ie...your money and people. As someone who has done many salvages worldwide once told me....if this was easy, someone else would have already done it. He was right.

Who owns the airframes up there? The Greenland folks will consider whomever has an approved salvage permit for that location will get the plane. Can't speak for other countries but if a military service considers a crash a war grave, then one would have to clear any recovery thru that service. MIA's will always take precedence. JPAC does not get involved in airframes salvaging. For the nearby Duck, that site is a war grave and Greenland will not issue any permits to salvagers (contractors) unless they are approved by the CG or JPAC.

Whoever has an approved salvage permit (there's one other type too) from the Greenland folks will be able to keep any P-38's that are dug up. As long as the salvager pays the money and follows their rules, the permit folks do not care who it is. If you have the permits for that area, I don't think the permit office will issue different salvagers permits for the same site. As I recall, that second permit (can't recall the name of it...grrr) is a claim to the site. Unless it changed, I want to say the permits were for two years. If you do not follow their rules, they can void your permit at anytime. That's in the fine print.

[warbird51]

There is an expedition going up there to recover the P-38's and B-17 this summer. The expedition is put together my a warbird collector named Ken McBride out of Calif.

[CoastieJohn]

He and I have spoken privately a few times. I did not know he was trying to get all of them.

[JDK]

All good stuff, CoastieJohn.

[Phase 1 would send up a skeleton crew first to confirm the location of each plane. By confirm I mean GPR it, melt to it, take pics that confirm 100% it is a P-38, then repeat the process for the next plane until all of their locations are confirmed 100%. From my perspective, until you can confirm a plane, you're going on the premise you think you know where it's at based on your homework. If it isn't there, you struck out and have to keep looking or go on to your next spot. Once (if) you have confirmed all 5 planes,

And there are three things worth adding that are certain - the aircraft definitely aren't where they were last time anyone pegged them - this ice moves stuff. And they're under more weight, probably greater depth each year's pack is added. Finally, the ice is hard staff and is grinding these machines in the differential movement, making the mills of God look nice and relaxed. IIRC, one of the B-17s was regarded as 'not worth it'* on an early expedition because it had already been ground out like a rotten fruit you slipped on underfoot on a pavement.

Regards,

*YYMV, as to 'worth it'. I don't think a B-17 is worth recovering in this way given others are in poor care in the lower 48 at the time of writing.

[cooper9411]

I too have spoke with Ken many times regarding being a part of the team going to Greenland or helping inspect/repair the aircraft that were in upstate New York and would be the aircraft used to get to Greenalnd. Unfortunately I was unable to assist with the aircraft as my schedule and theirs could not coincide with each other. I wish them all the best for the crew and salvage.

[CoastieJohn]

All good stuff, CoastieJohn.

[Phase 1 would send up a skeleton crew first to confirm the location of each plane. By confirm I mean GPR it, melt to it, take pics that confirm 100% it is a P-38, then repeat the process for the next plane until all of their locations are confirmed 100%. From my perspective, until you can confirm a plane, you're going on the premise you think you know where it's at based on your homework. If it isn't there, you struck out and have to keep looking or go on to your next spot. Once (if) you have confirmed all 5 planes,

And there are three things worth adding that are certain - the aircraft definitely aren't where they were last time anyone pegged them - this ice moves stuff. And they're under more weight, probably greater depth each year's pack is added. Finally, the ice is hard staff and is grinding these machines in the differential movement, making the mills of God look nice and relaxed. IIRC, one of the B-17s was regarded as 'not worth it'* on an early expedition because it had already been ground out like a rotten fruit you slipped on underfoot on a pavement.

Regards,

*YYMV, as to 'worth it'. I don't think a B-17 is worth recovering in this way given others are in poor care in the lower 48 at the time of writing.

The ice movement science is pretty interesting. The area where the Duck Hunt team is working does not have alot of ice movement. This was determined by planting GPS sat trackers in the area surrounding the known crash site and monitoring their movement. You go a mile or so to the NW and there is some movement where the ice dumps into the fjord. There are alot of crevasses forming there. WRT to where the P-38's are at, there is some movement. I'm thinking if the planes are not in a volatile crevassed area yet, they should be ok sitting in their icy surroundings. All bets are off if they make it to a crevasse field. I know they were not too far from alot of crevasses. Here's a gratuitous ice crevasse area not too far away.

[Enemy Ace]

The B-17 "Big Stoop" was damaged so bad that the Greenland Society under Pat Epps only recovered parts such as the Top Turret, Throttle quadrant and some other parts. I may be wrong but I think that the turret is flying again on the movie "Memphis Belle".