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Classic Wings Magazine WWII Naval Aviation Research Pacific Luftwaffe Resource Center
When Hollywood Ruled The Skies - Volumes 1 through 4 by Bruce Oriss


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 12:12 pm 
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Let's review the current state of the five remaining P-38F aircraft frozen in the Greenland ice sheet. If you're not familiar with the one that was previously recovered in 1992, google it. There's a book and at least one documentary on the subject. Yesterday's news. A pyrrhic victory, in that it was not an economically viable concept. Now, 22 years later, three of the remaining a/c are on the edge of he crevasse field, where they will be mangled beyond recognition within a couple of years. Time has run out for those who are waiting for the market value to catch up to the recovery cost. The government of the newly-independent country of Greenland has renounced all previously-held salvage rights. It is now first-come, first-served (with the proper permits, of course).

The value of each P-38F, in today's market, would be about $700,000, customs-cleared, ready to transport from a U.S. port facility. While it is not possible to recover one a/c for that kind of money, it IS possible to recover all five at once, for around $3.5M. You won't profit, but you won't show a huge loss either.

The current locations of the a/c are currently known in certain circles of the scientific community, through the efforts of the National Snow and Ice Data Center (didn't know we had one of those? me either). We know they can be pinpointed with VLF sub-surface radar. They are about 100m (330') down in the ice. To get a proper perspective on the task at hand, stand at the bottom of a thirty-story building and look up. Now just melt a (large) hole in the ice, take apart the plane, and haul it up. Repeat four more times. Piece of cake.

It would take approximately two weeks per a/c, plus set-up and clean-up time, so three months at minimum. Factor in weather, and probably more like four months out there, a major time commitment. Billionaires have better things to do with their time, and you can't do it on your summer vacation. This requires dedicated folks who have the background and skillset for this sort of work. Since basically only three people have done this before, having actual experience doing it is not possible. However, one of them has made a significant contribution to our knowledge base. If things go well, there are other a/c to recover in Greenland. Melt more holes while you have the equipment there to do it.

Now to the point: Are there five entities who would want these a/c, if recovered? Some of the major players are on here. Some of you are their friends. Some of you work for them. We would like to meet with any person or institution who has the desire and the means to own/restore one (or more) of these a/c, including those outside the U.S. We have a comprehensive plan for the recovery, we have a lower-risk investment strategy, and we have a non-profit set up to do this type of work. We would like to form a recovery co-op with the interested parties. If you are one of these, please send us a PM so we may contact you directly.

For anyone else who would like to participate, we will start a crowdfunding campaign soon. It will include some rather interesting perks. We're not looking for "volunteers" or crew members at this time. We aren't here to stir up controversy or to challenge others. This is a project that fits well with the objectives of our organization, and we share your keen interest in warbirds. No further information on our plan will be shared publicly at this time. Thanks for your consideration.

"We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard..." - JFK

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 12:50 pm 
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Anyone know how this expedition went?
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=52661&hilit=greenland


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 12:59 pm 
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Never left home.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:57 pm 
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Do you think your 2 weeks per aircraft maybe a little underestimating?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 5:16 pm 
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I recovered a BT-13 in a back yard, with all the tools on hand, air, plenty of help, and some knowledge forehand (I had taken one apart a few years before). 1 day turned into 4. Then the truck broke down. Almost turned into 6 days.

30 stories of ice? Air transport? Weather? The other human factors? Simple plans will get you simple results- none!

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 5:49 pm 
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CoastieJohn - The way it was done before, yes, that would be unrealistic. Since you have no knowledge of our plan, you can't know what, or how long, it will take. We have the highest regard for the people who accomplished this previously, given the severe constraints that were thrust upon them. We have changed the method, and the constraints. We have the benefit of hindsight, improved technology, and a broader perspective. We have also removed the profit motive. We will be happy to discuss our plans privately, in confidence. We would welcome your insight, and the benefits of your previous experience. Please send a PM to establish contact. Thanks!

Forgotten Field - Your statement that our plan is "simple" presumes facts not in evidence. Also, the presumption that your experience is reflective of ours, is flawed. People don't see the world as it is, they see it as THEY are. We may be new here, but we are not new at this sort of thing. We have taken weather, ice, the human condition, etc. into account. Even at your pace, you got the BT-13 apart and moved in six days, which would leave eight days to melt the hole. Plenty of time. We will have ALL the tools & equipment, ALL the experience we need, and motivated team players who will press on to the objective. To paraphrase Gene Kranz, "Failure is not an option".

Q-"How do you get to Carnegie Hall?" A-"Practice, practice, practice."

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:22 pm 
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I just got through reading "Frozen in Time" and the team that is trying to recover the Coast Guard seaplane and the remains of the 3 Coast Guard men were planning a return trip, may be you can assist each other or the author of that book could document your venture.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:43 pm 
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Will you recover the remains of the two B-17s as well? They may be crushed but all the rare small parts are there to bring a certain pair of B-17Es (one owned by Paul Allen) back to stock configuration, plus center wing sections are desirable for any future restorations.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:06 pm 
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alang wrote:
I just got through reading "Frozen in Time" and the team that is trying to recover the Coast Guard seaplane and the remains of the 3 Coast Guard men were planning a return trip, may be you can assist each other or the author of that book could document your venture.


They've already been up there and back for this year.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:12 pm 
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Global warming will help!!! pop2


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 6:07 am 
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With all due respect to Gene Kranz, failure is an option, and an option you need to consider. You should think of Eisenhower, as well. He was an astute planner. But he realized that the moment the plan came to fruition and was executed, things changed, and the plan in many ways had to be changed. There is an example or two of that through history.

As for your funding numbers, I hope your actual expenses fall within your parameters. I also hope that the value of the artifacts falls within your expected values. I don't know if I agree with you on them but I'm not the one soliciting funds to go anywhere. Good luck with your endeavor.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:41 am 
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alang - If the people at North South Polar want our help, we'll be happy to provide it. Once we prove we can do this, of course.

Mr. Brame - The size of B-17 components adds an order of magnitude to the task. We may consider retrieving parts once the primary objective has
been fulfilled. They are, unfortunately, beyond economic recovery, according to our information. By all means, have Mr. Allen send us
his contact info. We'd love to work with him!

Invader 26 - Global warming is the biggest problem, actually. It has increased the speed at which the ice sheet moves to the coast, which is only
ten miles away. When the ice sheet transitions from the relatively flat bedrock plain of central Greenland to the rugged coastal area,
it has to move up and down to conform to the terrain, which in turn forms the crevasse field. Three of the a/c are at this point now,
and will by destroyed quickly by he constant shifting of the ice. Without global warming, they could have stayed out there another
fifty years, at least. And yes, I know you're trying to be funny, but it's a good excuse to illustrate why we need to act soon.

F F - Familiar with Ike's observations, we are. We're happy to listen to the numbers from those who are in the biz. Advice we received was to
value them for their many nearly-new, usable parts, not as complete a/c. Please feel free to PM us if you'd care to share your views.

Our team mantra is "improvise, adapt, and overcome". We're sure that Chicken Poop Soup (that's making chicken soup from chicken
poop) will be the Daily Special in Greenland. We plan for those kinds of things too (bring LOTS of salt!). Many lifetimes of experience
in dealing with adversity are being brought to the table. This will be a military-style operation, not amateur hour. Hardship will be
the norm. 16 hours of hard labor & crap food, and then a sleeping bag. Senses that are always dulled, fingers and toes always numb.
We have no delusions about the difficuly of this task. While most of us may have indeed fallen off the turnip truck, it wasn't a recent
event, and it wasn't in California.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:37 am 
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I always wanted to go to the islands and hunt and retrieve Japanese warbirds. I almost had an opportunity to do so. It didn't pan out. The factors there are well documented here on WIX. As for values, a free appraisal gets you exactly what you pay for. If you want an appraisal of your situation, I'll give you a rate. PM me if you are serious.

Two further suggestions, based on my experience in arctic operations- get some tents to be around the sleeping bags. Most bags I have used or know of don't meet survival standards for those situations. And bring better food- if you scrimp on nutrition, you won't make a week in that environment. Good luck!

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 11:01 am 
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F F - As we can't PM anyone on here, you'll have to PM us. If we could PM people on here, we wouldn't have created this post!
All numbers are theoretical until money is on the table. Consider our location, then consider who might have provided our information. Play your cards right, and you might get to the islands after all (governmental interference notwithstanding). This is meant to be a cooperative venture. No one will do this with their own money, but if we all pitch in, we have the capability to succeed. This isn't only about the P-38's in Greenland, either. They are the opening act.

*Actual "Daily Special" - Seven pounds of reindeer meat, per man, per day. Just like Lewis & Clark.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 12:20 pm 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lw0IWywLrcg

I hope that whatever team that attempts to retrieve these is met with great success.


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