Warbird Information Exchange

This may seem off-topic but I think this is very relevant to discussion of longterm aircraft preservation: The USS Olympic, an historic cruiser of the Spanish-American War of 1898, is slated to be sunk as an artificial reef later this year. This is a singularly rare and historic naval vessel, one of the few first or second-generation iron 19th century warships extant in the world. It is to be sunk because drydocking repair costs of about $10 million can not be raised by the Independence Seaport Museum of Philadelphia.

If such a rare ship is now being considered for disposal, then what is the potential fates of the relatively more common and less historic (except for the USS Missouri) WWII battleships or aircraft carriers now preserved in various cities around the country. How many of these might still survive a hundred years from now? By that time, WWII will be as distant a memory as the Spanish American War is today. By extension, what is the fate of any but the national air museums by that distant time? How many B-29s or B-52s would still survive, even as static displays. (I would guess that 100 years from now there would be NO flying military aircraft of the WWII era, simply because of the cost and unavailability - not to mention the cost of carbon credits - of gasoline.

My guess is that many of the private and smaller public air museums will wink out as the young generation that has little appreciation of history or historical artifacts comes into its own and faces the tough economic choices of the future; these choices would include deciding between airplane museums / old battleships and supporting ourselves and ultimately themselves in entitled old age benefits.

Solutions? I think there is much to be said of expansions of our national air museums while there remains interest and money. The NMUSAF has been embarked on ambitious building and collecting. The NASM has been deaccessing aircraft despite the addition of the Udvar Hazy facility, when expanding that facility should be in order. Such expansions will not only preserve more of these museums existing aircraft but will allow planes from closing museums to be transferred to a safer place.

In this forum, we spend much time discussing the preservation of wreckage and other artifacts whose longterm fate is probably unlikely. If something as rare as the USS Olympia is likely to be destroyed in our present, then what is to be the ultimate fate of all but a few of the old airplanes that we cherish?

One thing for sure: We should not let the Olympia be a precident. It needs to be preserved. There is a "Friends of the USS Olympia" that is trying to raise money, though I have no good knowledge of how organized or capable this organization might be. Certainly, the failure of efforts to raise money to preserve the USS Enterprise in the late 1950s does not bode well for the Olympia. All those who lament the fate of the "Big E" - and who of us does not beat our breasts on that issue! - should be raising money to see that this type of event does not reoccur.

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Kevin McCartney

It's a National Treasure and should be saved no matter what the cost.
No other U.S. ship from that era exists. I can't imagine anyone letting it become an underwater reef.
Jerry

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"Always remember that, when you enter the ocean or the forest, you are no longer at the top of the food chain."

Does'nt bode very well for the USS New Jersey right across the river, does it? Or the SS United States, about 2 miles south of the Olympia....someone's gotta have an interest in saving these ships....we just need them to step forward...

Mark

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Mark Morris

Why not just get her out off the water and preserve her on land?

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Magister Aviation
It's all in my book

I agree with this.... think about the U Boat in the Chicago museum. Heck, if you want the illusion of it being in water sink it up to the waterline in concrete, then texture it to look like waves.

Wow, this sucks. Isnt the USS Yorktown also having similar problems? As far as air artifacts, there is no question a number of years down the road planes on display outside will be scrapped. Many of them will eventually be so far gone they wont be able to be saved. This includes B-17's and B-29's. I hope I'm wrong but many of them are falling apart now.

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Ain't no sunshine when she's gone!

That's what they're planning on doing with the Texas down at San Jacinto.

Many other ship-based museums are in trouble. Olympia is just the tip of the iceberg. Patriot's Point got socked with major repairs to the Laffey ("The Ship that Wouldn't Die") to keep her afloat and there's been some sinister talk about Yorktown being towed out and sunk as a reef because of affordability issues (iirc over $100 million to restore). I saw Clamagore at PP up close only a few weeks ago (Yorktown looked ok to me during the same trip) and she's a real mess. I'm not sure that Hornet in Alameda has ever done well, nor Salem in Quincy MA. The Massachusetts has seen financial trouble recently too.

Lexington, Intrepid, North Carolina, Alabama and Wisconsin (which is still sealed off) seem to be doing ok for the big ships on the US East/Gulf Coasts. Same with Little Rock/The Sullivans in Buffalo, Midway in San Diego and Missouri at Pearl. New Jersey has been a roller-coaster, iirc. Personally, I now doubt that Iowa will ever find a home and think she'll will eventually be reefed.

To a certain extent ship museums are a victim of their own success -- the population of museum ships is now over-saturated relative to the increasing costs of preservation/upkeep plus the ability to raise money in a horrendous economy. There's got to be either some sort of contraction in their number, consolidation under private auspices (if Hornet was doing better she'd be a perfect pier-mate for Iowa, for instance. Olympia would make a nice pier-mate for Wisconsin at Nauticus) or increased support from governmental sources (particularly the Federal Government, which is spending money like a drunken sailor - sorry for the pun).

Should add something too ... the threat to scrap/reef could certainly be used as a shock-value tactic to raise a lot of money and/or spur public/governmental action quickly. Sort of like how PBS threatens to off Big Bird (by shutting down Sesame Street) every time their budget is threatened. While I'd normally be skeptical, I think given the current economic crisis the threat isn't being overblown. At least all that much.

Seems strange that the Navy will grab up every airframe, retored or wreck that they can get their paws on but yet turns a blind eye on the Olymia. Do they speak with forked tongue?

This is a shame. I've followed the SS United States with interest for years (awesome ship) hoping it will be saved... The reality is, these ships take an enormous amount of money to restore and maintain...buckets of money. Then there's the dock fees, the associated museum/visitors center, insurance, access, etc., etc.,
The SS United States will probably end up in the scrappers hands (I hope not) but the cost of restoring the gutted interiors alone would be in the millions.
Hopefully the Olympia will find safe harbors.....

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"Everyone wants to live here (New Jersey), evidenced by the fact that it has the highest population per capita in the U.S..."

The gubmint is not interested in preserving national treasures.The are more interested in making sure everyone ends up dependent on welfare.The money lost,stolen and wasted on social programs would be more than ample to take care of all these ships.What a national disgrace.

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Hang The Expense

Interesting question, which can be taken in lots of different directions.

First thought to me is that the US is remarkably and relatively well provided for with significant historic warships, particularly in contrast to the UK (as well as most other countries).

Despite the status of the Royal Navy in the UK's history, and the preservation of a number of historic older ships, there is not a single battleship, or even more lamentably, not a single British dreadnought preserved in British hands - and they invented what was the ultimate superweapon on the day. (The USS Texas is the only surviving full dreadnought, and outside the multiple battleships preserved in the US, only the Japanese pre-dreadnought Mikasa is a true battleship in preservation.) Likewise there is not a single preserved Royal Navy (or even Commonwealth - RAN or RCN) carrier of any size in preservation, the last chance for a medium size fleet carrier passing only a couple of years ago when the last ex-RN W.W.II era design carrier, HMS Vengeance went for scrap in 2004, due to a lack of funds by groups trying to arrange preservation. So the largest C20 British warship in preservation is the cruiser HMS Belfast, a great ship to see, but a poor and second-rate (literally) remnant of one of the world's most historic navy.

(To take another nation, the only surviving RCN Flower Class Corvette - the Canadian W.W.II navy being a corvette navy - is HMCS Sackville in Halifax harbour. Thank God they have one preserved, but one per coast would seem more appropriate. Again the UK has not a single example of the Flowers.)

In short, the UK cannot show a single RN capital ship from the twentieth century (including two world wars) the last century when the RN was the No.1 navy in the world. Disgraceful, and too late to fix.

People will rightly point to the relative size and populations of the US and UK, but an important counter to that is the major social and economic role tourism and the heritage industry plays in the UK. WIX posters are typical for travelling to Britain for tourism reasons, or work which will also include tourism (such as airshows and museums).

So there's much to be grateful for, and I hope supportive of with historic C20 ships in the US.

Old Iron raises an interesting point of warship preservation as being an interesting measure against aircraft. In different ways, they are both awkward and challenging and certainly expensive; and both are difficult to even find ways of getting them to 'earn their keep' in some form of preservation. I'm sure you can draw the parallel too far, but I agree it's a good one to consider.

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James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com

James, HMAS Melbourne still exists in China. She was sold for scap but used by Chinese designers of their new carrier. We tried to save the last DDG, HMAS Brisbane, but the gumnit spent millions sending her to the bottom as a divers wreck. Brisbane served in Vietnam etc and as the last steam boat [turbine] in the RAN...

My impression is that in the US there's always been a lack of support of heritage as a 'national attic' and an expectation that they should break even or pay their way, rather than being a form of loss-leading intellectual heritage property. The pressure on places like the Smithsonian to work in some form of 'good business practice' - including the occasional post here - is immense, and IMHO, misses the point. You put public money in, and they hold knowledge and history in trust for us all. Money does not come out.

Certainly I think it's easier to get funding for preservation in the UK for groups and associations, while the US is famous for its tax breaks for individual rich men who are prepared to go through the motions of having a 'museum' - of often dubious historical merit, but often bright, shiny, matt black or go faster 'stuff' - including airplanes. It's a variation on the current drive by people like Buffet to 'gift' part of their riches as they think fit, rather than structuring a government to do it for them. I know a lot don't trust governments here, with varying degrees of reason (of both kinds) but I trust rich guys with 'our' heritage a lot less. It just takes one hole in the will...

However many collectors there may be for tanks, guns and airplanes, capital ships seem to be a bit expensive and lacking in whizz or ('affordable' bang) for the type A personality impressing the wee-wee out of his ten-year-old self.

Yes, I'm being slightly controversial, and it's not an attack on the American approach or the many privately owned cool warbirds I've enjoyed in the US.

Regards,

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James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com

Thanks for that, Invader. I wasn't looking at the RAN, as it's not as poorly served in some ways as the RN or RCN - and I'm not as familiar with the surviving ships, either.

I was just shaking the piggy-bank in excitement, for any spare 'carrier cash', when I decided to check - sadly it appears you are wrong, as the records indicate that HMAS Melbourne was scrapped by 2002, although your other points are correct, and thanks for that. I'd also point out that there was no attempt to preserve Melbourne in Australia (a 'floating casino' does not count!) nor by the British, more likely and able to see such a carrier as a heritage item. Locally we have HMAS Castlemaine, a (non-Flower class) W.W.II Corvette, in preservation, and HMVS Ceberus continues to fall apart at Black Rock, despite being one of the last surviving monitors in the world.

We are all aware that aircraft are expensive to preserve, more so to operate, but it seems your starting position for basic preservation with ships is usually millions, not thousands. That is probably the scale of difference that's easiest to grip.

Regards,

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James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com

And welcome to WIX, Invader! Enjoy.

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James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com