Grumman OEM serial numbers

Rajay · **Posted:** Sat Mar 30, 2013 2:56 pm

I have been having a prolonged discussion off board with various other "experts" and now I'm interested in trying to find some more hard "proof" one way or another.

Officially speaking, both the FAA type certificate (654) and the actual, apparently original Goose data tag that I have in my hand collectively specify and/or show that the proper or correct format for Grumman G-21 aircraft serial numbers after s/n 1200 had a "B-" prefix and that those serial numbers ranged from B-1 to B-145 (including the dash and not formatted as "Bxxx" or "B.xxx" as some folks like to represent it.)

An example:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/aqczk15nfg32ooc/N641%20B-115%20IMG_6342.JPG

Similarly, I have most often seen Albatross (G-64) and Mallard (G-73) aircraft serial numbers represented as "G-" series and "J-" series respectively:
G-1 to G-464 for the Albatross, and
J-1 to J-59 for the Mallard

I don't know if they are valid are not, but I found some images of Grumman Mallard data tags online here:
http://www.g73s39s44online.htmlplanet.com/photo_1.html

But without any other specific evidence to support it one way or the other, some of my colleagues are claiming that in the case of the Alabatross there were no prefix at all ("G" or otherwise) just a number ranging from 1 to 464 (not including the two pre-production prototypes and in the case of the Mallard that there was no dash, just the "J" prefix and a number from 1 to 59.

That strikes me as unlikely since there is absolutely no consistency to what should be a formal "system" for the identification of Grumman aircraft.

So, I am looking for hard evidence - photos of actual data tags would be the best kind of such evidence.

Does anybody have any actual Grumman aircraft data tags (Eastern Aircraft / General Motors aircraft do NOT count) of which they can post photos here for all to see for common reference?

I don't know whether it should make any difference if the aircraft in question were military only or dual-use both military and civilian certified. I'm interested to see just what exactly shakes out of this discussion....

Note that all Widgeons produced by Grumman, starting in 1940 or so (right?) had simple numeric serial numbers:
Models G-44 (and military J4F-1 and -2) Widgeons were serial nos. 1201 through 1400 and post-war
Models G-44A were serial nos. 1401 through 1476.

The "B-" series JRF-5 Gooses did not start rolling off the production line until, according to my notes and Mitch Mayborn's Grumman Guidebook from 1976, July 1943.

So, presumably, if there was an "A-" series of Grumman serial numbers, it would have been a model that was developed after the Widgeon but before July 1943. Similarly, aircraft with a "C-" or subsequent ranges of serial numbers would have had to have been developed only after July 1943.

Rajay · **Posted:** Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:56 am

Gee, guys! Not much help so far...

I just found an image online of a "collectible" data tag from an F6F-3 Hellcat here:

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/grumman-f6f-hellcat-data-plate-wwii-169253607

And it seems to indicate that they (Grumman F6F Hellcats) carried "A" series OEM serial or "construction" numbers.

This data tag identifies US Navy Bu. no. 25939 as a Grumman "F6F3" with serial number "A653" that was built in July 1943 (which does fit the timeline I established above) but since we all know that the "proper" format for the US Navy model designation was actually "F6F-3" it is not really conclusive "proof" one way or another as to whether there should be or was a dash in the "actual" serial number too (as in "A-653" - or not) because if it was suppressed in the model designation to save space (or time spent stamping the data tag for another example) then it could just as well have been suppressed from the serial number for the same reasons.

I plan to keep trying to find more "evidence" one way or the other....

The Inspector · **Posted:** Mon Apr 01, 2013 4:14 pm

Possibly a factory or supplier priority coding system? 'A' was for shootin' stuff and 'B' was for liason or non essential to combat type airframes?

Rajay · **Posted:** Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:54 am

I've been only just assuming that it was just a simple alphanumeric progression over time and that during the production run of Gooses and Widgeons (or maybe just the 1942-1943 timeframe when all of their wartime production really started to ramp up) they decided that they were going to run out of straight-forward numbers or have to go to more and more digits unless they started to add something like the alphabetical prefix.

So, apparently, with the start of full production of the Hellcat in late 1942, they started using the "A" prefix and with follow-on contracts for the Goose in mid-1943, they used the "B" prefix. Eventually they got to "G" prefixes for the G-64 Albatross (which flew for the first time in October 1947 and production examples of which were first delivered to the USAF in July 1949 and to the US Navy in December 1949) and "J" prefixes for the G-73 Mallard (which first flew in April 1946 and which was delivered to its first customer the following September - also apparently taking less time to go from conception to full production than did the Albatross.)

However, apparently because the production run of "Grumman" Widgeons (totalling only 276 aircraft - even including the G-44A's that were not built until long after the war but not including the French-built SCAN Type 30's that were built even later) was so small, Grumman never bothered to expand the field of potential serial numbers for that type.

If that is all it was (and I'm correct about their "system") then I would expect to find other model production runs in between the Hellcat and Goose and the Albatross and Mallard the serial numbers for which would have C, D, E, and/or F prefixes. Likely "candidates" of significant Grumman production runs during that timeframe include:

The Goose - Grumman designs nos. G-38 (the last blocks of USN variants which had the "B" series OEM serials and were produced from June 1943 until August 1945)

The Avenger - Grumman design no. G-40 (from the very little bit of additional research that I have done so far, the early, actually "Grumman" built model TBF-1 series Avengers entered production in December 1941 and were operational for the first time in combat at the Battle of Midway in June 1942. According to Wikipedia, Grumman actually held an "open house" ceremony on the afternoon of Dec. 7, 1941 to celebrate the completion of a new factory and assembly line for the production of the TBF Avenger series. And according to Baugher, one the very few actual "Grumman" model "TBF" survivors - as opposed to the more common, built-later-in-the-war Eastern Aircraft/General Motors "TBM" variants - currently undergoing restoration to airworthiness is Bu. no. 47887, which falls within a block of OEM Grumman serials in the 5xxx range - actually 5404 - 5889.* In other words, a production run before the advent of Grumman's alphabetical serial number prefixes.)

*Compared to the early JRF-5 Gooses with serial numbers up to 1200 and all of the Widgeons (with serial numbers from 1201 to 1476 - of which 1201 to 1400 were built actually during the war) you can begin to get an idea of how fast Grumman's production was ramping up at the start of the war - even before the official entry of the US into it in December 1941.

The Hellcat - Grumman design no. G-50 (the first full "production" F6F-3 variants of which started to roll off the assembly lines in October 1942 and which first entered operational service starting in Feb. 1943 - and which apparently had "A" series OEM serial numbers. From what I was able to find, some 12,275 Hellcats were eventually produced - and with that many aircraft, they may have eventually gone to one of the subsequent alphabetical prefixes in order to cover them all.)

The Tigercat - Grumman design no. G-51 (OEM serial or "construction" nos?)

The Bearcat - Grumman design no. G-58 (OEM serial or "construction" nos?)

There's no obvious direct temporal correlation between those model/design numbers and some of these serial number ranges, at least not yet. So far, the correlations are more in alignment with the production timeframes than the design/model numbers themselves. I just don't have enough "data" yet but it seemed like a valid potential extrapolation of a logical "system" - a pattern or standard. It's just a theory at this point and that's why I'm trying to obtain more data - to see if it actually fits with more and more data points.

So far though most of everything I'm finding that has been written about those other models references them only in terms of US Navy Buerau of Aeronautics serial (aka "Bu.") numbers and I haven't found any good reference for them in terms of Grumman's OEM serial or "construction" numbers.

Rajay · **Posted:** Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:37 am

Following up further on my last projected research, via Wikipedia and Baugher, I found the following data points regarding the F7F Tigercat series - and Grumman OEM "C" series serial numbers:

Bu. no. = OEM s/n
80373 = C.115
80375 = C.117
80382 = C.124
80390 = C.132
80397 = C.139
80400 = C.142
80404 = C.146
80410 = C.152
80412 = C.154
80425 = C.167
80483 = C.225
80494 = C.236
80503 = C.245
80525 = C.261
80532 = C.268
80536 = C.272

Now, thirteen of those sixteen data points are synchronized such that if you make the following corrections, it is possible to logically extrapolate all Grumman F7F Tigercat OEM serials as per the text following the "corrections".

If instead of:

80525 = C.261
80532 = C.268
80536 = C.272

the "correct" data was actually:
80519 = C.261
80525 = C.267
80526 = C.268
80530 = C.272
80532 = C.274
80536 = c.278

Then you get absolutely perfect synchronization with the following serial number correlations:

Two (2) XF7F-1 prototypes (Bu. nos. 03549 and 03550)
Grumman OEM serial numbers unknown.

Thirty-four (34) F7F-1 and -1N production aircraft (Bu. nos. 80259 – 80293*)
Grumman OEM serial numbers C.001 – C.035* (aka C.1 through C.35* or C-1 through C-35*)
*except for Bu. no. 80261 which was the prototype XF7F-2, Grumman OEM ser. no. C.003 (aka C.3 or C-3.)

One (1) XF7F-2 prototype (Bu. no. 80261) Grumman OEM serial no. C.003 (aka C.3 or C-3)

Sixty-five (65) F7F-2N aircraft (Bu. nos. 80294 – 80358)
Grumman OEM serial nos. C.036 – C.100 (aka C.36 through C.100 or C-36 through C-100.)

One hundred and eighty-nine (189) F7F-3 aircraft (Bu. nos. 80359 – 80547)
Grumman OEM serial nos. C.101 – C.289 (aka C-101 through C-289.)

One (1) XF7F-4N prototype aircraft (Bu. no. 80548)
Grumman OEM serial no. C.290 (aka C-290.)

Sixty (60) F7F-3N aircraft (Bu. nos. 80549 – 80608)
Grumman OEM serial nos. C.291 – C.350 (aka C-291 through C-350.)

Thirteen (13) F7F-4N aircraft (Bu. nos. 80609 – 80620)
Grumman OEM serial nos. C.351 – C.362 (aka C-351 through C-362.)

Total production = 364 aircraft.

Rajay · **Posted:** Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:56 am

And although it will take much more analysis (because for one thing apparently some 1,265 examples were built) Baugher's lists of Grumman F8F Bearcats show (as I expected) some evidence of "D" series OEM serial or "construction" numbers too:

USN Bu. nos. 90437 ... 90459
Grumman F8F-1 Bearcat

90442 crashed on takeoff from NAS Patuxent River, MD 10/3/1947. Pilot killed.

90446 (c/n D.10) to NASM in 1952 and stored at Silver Hill. Exchanged with Darryl Greenamyer in 1976 for F8F-2 N1111L (ex 121646) and became N99279, later N14HP. Now with Breckenridge Aviation Museum. Reported extant Apr 9, 2008 owned by Howard Pardue. N14HP crashed shortly after takeoff from Stephens County Airport, Breckenridge, Texas Apr 4, 2012. Pilot killed.

90450 landing gear collapsed during landing 8/7/1945 Alameda, CA. Pilot injured.

90451 stalled during dead stick landing NAES Mustin Field, PA 10/2/1947. Pilot killed.

90454 (c/n D.18) to civil registry as N3351, then NL9G. Was at Kalamazoo Aviation History Museum, but reported 2008 to be up for sale. Seen flying out of Falcon Field, AZ as N9G

95254 ... 95259
Grumman F8F-1 Bearcat
95255 (c/n D.527) to civil registry as N41089, then N58204, reported 1972 displayed at Tan Son Nhut AB, South Vietnam. In 2009 reported owned by private owner in USA.

Rajay · **Posted:** Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:19 pm

Additional Grumman F6F Hellcat data points from Baugher’s lists:

08798 ... 09047
Grumman F6F-3 Hellcat

08825 (c/n A-212) became N4965V. Crashed at Canby, OR Jun 12, 1977, killing the pilot.

65890 ... 66243
Grumman F6F-3 Hellcat

66237 (c/n A-1257) ditched in Pacific Ocean near San Diego Jan 12, 1944. Recovered by USN Oct 9, 1970. Reported in 1974 at Pima County Air Museum, Tucson, AZ. Later on display at National Museum of Naval Aviation, Pensacola, FL.

39999 ... 43137
Grumman F6F-3 Hellcat

40467 (c/n A-1733) reported in 1969 at Victory Air Museum, Mundelein, IL

41834 (c/n A-3100) Served with VF-15 on USS Hornet, later VF-3 where it sustained damage in a wheels-up landing at NAS Barbers Point, HI. After repair assigned o VF-83 where it was used in a training role until Feb 21, 1945. After numerous transfers converted to F6F-3K target drone and painted red. Used in support of Operation Crossroads series of nuclear tests in the Pacific. Transferred to NAS Norfolk and made last flight Mar 25, 1947. Assigned to National Air Museum Nov 3, 1948 and moved to storage in 1960 at the Paul Garber Restoration Facility, Suitland MD. Loaned to USS Yorktown Museum at Charleston, South Carolina in 1976. Returned to NASM Mar 16, 1982. In 1983 sent to Grumman Aerospace for complete restoration. In 1985 shipped back to the Garber Restoration and Storage Facility. Noted Dec 2005 in Udvar-Hazy facility of NASM, Chantilly, VA

41930 (c/n A-3196) became N6096C. Later became N103V. Reported 1981 at Champlin Fighter Museum, Mesa, AZ. Noted as N30FG at Planes of Fame Jan 13, 2002.

58000 ... 58999
Grumman F6F-5 Hellcat

58846 (c/n A-5250) to Royal Navy as JV348. Reported at Civil Defense Headquarters, Portsmouth, England in 1962. Believed broken up and burned 1963.

77259 ... 80258
Grumman F6F-5 Hellcat

77722 (c/n A-8867) converted to F6F-5K drone 1956; stored after accident 1961 when swerved off runway and struck control van. To Naval Air Facility at Andrews AFB, MD 1965; in 1996 was noted to have a robotic 'pilot' who turned his head and 'waved' at passers-by!

78645 (c/n A-9790) to civil registry as N9265A. Now on display at Yanks Air Museum, CA.

79683 (c/n A-10828) became N7896C, then N4PP. Now with Kalamazoo Aviation History Museum with civil registration NX4PP.

79863 (c/n A-11008) donated by Grumman to USNAM, NAS Pensacola, FL in 1969. Registered in 1972 to Aerial Classics of Atlanta, GA as N79863. Noted in 1988 displayed on USS Yorktown, Patriots Point, Charleston, SC.

80141 (F6F-5K c/n A.11286) to French Navy, then to N80142, then N100TF, then was to have become N10CN, but registration not taken up. Currently G-BTCC with Fighter Collection at Duxford, UK in USMC colors with fake BuNo 40467.

80166 (c/n A-11311) displayed statically at Fergus Falls AP, MN, reported derelict 1962. Became N1078Z same year and by 1982 was with the Confederate Air Force, Harlingen, TX

93652 ... 94751
Grumman F6F-5 Hellcat
94522/94751 cancelled

93879 (c/n A-11631) with Planes of Fame, Anchorage, AK flying as N4994V. Collided with Cessna 182H N8567S in circuit at Parker, AZ Jan 11, 2003. Cessna crashed, F6F landed safely. Crashed into power lines Oct 8, 2005 in Monterey, TN, fell to the ground, and burst into flames. Pilot killed.

94203 (c/n A-11955) became N7865C. Reported 1973 on display at National Museum of Naval Aviation, Pensacola, FL

94204 (c/n A-11956) became N4998V. Passed through various hands until reported 1986 at Lone Star Flight Museum, Houston, TX. Rebuilt to flying condition by Steve Picatti of Hayward, CA. First flight after rebuild May 4, 1989.

94263 (c/n A-12015) reported 1976 at USMC Museum, MCAS Quantico, VA. Reported 1988 loaned to Cradle of Aviation Museum, Garden City, NY.

94385 (c/n A-12137) registered N77861C. Reported Sep 1961 with Confederate Air Force, Victoria, TX. Damaged by fire in crash landing Jul 1969. Remains reported 1982 with Michael E. Coutches of Hayward, CA

94473 (c/n A-12255) became N4964W. With Planes of Fame Air Museum, Minnesota, painted as an F6F-3 flown by Ens. W. B. Webb of VF-2 which shot down 6 Vals during the Marianas Turkey Shoot.

Rajay · **Posted:** Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:28 pm

Additional "D" series Grumman F8F Bearcat OEM serial number "data points" from Baugher's lists:

95335 ... 95339
Grumman F8F-1 Bearcat
95338 (c/n D.610) reported 1972 displayed at Tan Son Nhut AB, South Vietnam

95369 ... 95372
Grumman F8F-1 Bearcat
95369 (c/n D.641, VF-13) wing collapsed during landing Philippine Sea CV-47. Pilot OK. Reported 1972 displayed at Nha Trang AB, South Vietnam

95401 ... 95401
Grumman F8F-1B Bearcat
95401 (c/n D.650) Reported 1979 at Flying Tigers Museum, Paris, TX

122087 ... 122152
Grumman F8F-1B Bearcat
122095 (c/n D.779) SOC USN Oct 1951. Later to Thai AF as KH15-43/93 Subsequently placed on display in Bangkok and by 1987 had been acquired by the Salis collection at La Ferte Alais, France. Later on civil registry as G-BUCF Feb 18, 1992 and later as N2209 Nov 12, 1992. Reported 2005 at Yanks Air Museum, Chino, CA.

122120 (c/n D.804) SOC USN Oct 1952, to Royal Thai AF as KH15-72/95. Acquired by the Foundation for the Preservation and Development of Thai Aircraft Dec 1994, and shipped to Grumman in USA for restoration. Returned to Thailand May 2003 and currently (Aug 2003) at Utapao awaiting painting and first flight

121463 ... 121522
Grumman F8F-1B Bearcat
121510 (c/n D.854) to South Vietnamese AF. Reported 1972 at Bien Hoa AB, South Vietnam.

121523 ... 121548
Grumman F8F-2 Bearcat
121528 (c/n D.902) became N9886C, then N212KA. Crashed on landing at Lost Nations AP, Ohio Dec 13, 1968, killing the pilot.

121586 ... 121600
Grumman F8F-2 Bearcat
121589 (c/n D.963) became N5171V, then N5555H. Hit trees in bad weather and crashed in mountains near Scott, NY Apr 18, 1967. Pilot killed

121606 ... 121611
Grumman F8F-2P Bearcat
121608 (c/n D.982) became N7700C. Crashed at North Kingson, RI Jun 5, 1971, killing the pilot.

121612 ... 121631
Grumman F8F-2 Bearcat
121614 (c/n D.988) wfu 1952 and to storage at NAS Litchfield Park, AZ. Sold 1958. Became N7957C. Badly damaged in forced landing May 1974 and stored until rebuilding commenced 1992. Registered NX747NF Feb 24, 2009, first flew after rebuilt Apr 16, 2009, painted in Thai AF colors.

121638 ... 121657
Grumman F8F-2 Bearcat
121646 (c/n D.1020) became N7699C. Acquired by Darryl Greenameyer and re-registered N1111L and used Aug 1969 to set new speed record for propeller-driven aircraft of 483.041 mph. Traded to NASM in 1976 in exchange for 90446 and stored at Silver Hill, MD

121664 ... 121683
Grumman F8F-2 Bearcat
121679 (c/n D.1053) became N4992V, then N818F

121690 ... 121708
Grumman F8F-2 Bearcat
121699 (c/n D.1073) became N7826C. Crashed at Amarillo AFB, TX Aug 13, 1966

121709 ... 121714
Grumman F8F-2P Bearcat
121714 (c/n D.1088) to civil registry as N4995V, then N1YY, then NX700H, then NX700HL. Now with The Fighter Collection at Duxford, UK as G-RUMM.

121715 ... 121733
Grumman F8F-2 Bearcat
121731 (c/n D.1105) became N1028B, then N500B, then N5005. Crashed during US Cup Race at San Diego, CA Jul 18, 1971, killing the pilot.

121740 ... 121757
Grumman F8F-2 Bearcat
121748 (c/n D.1122) to disposal Jan 1, 1957. To US civil registry as N1029B, then N618F, then N200N. To French registry as F-AZRJ. Later on US civil registry as N224RD, but reregistered N1DF Jul 31, 2008

121751 (c/n D.1125) registered N9885C. Flew as a race plane for many years. Crashed at Commerce, GA Jun 18, 1980, killing the pilot.

121752 (c/n D.1126) to civil registry as N7827C, then N2YY, then N800H

121776 ... 121784
Grumman F8F-2 Bearcat
121776 (c/n D.1162) to civil registry as N1030B, used as wind machine by Kaman Aircraft Corp. Then stored at USMC Museum, Quantico, VA. Rebuilt and now airworthy with Lone Star Flight Museum, Galveston, TX as N68RW. Owned by Robert Waltrip. Reported to be up for sale.

121785 ... 121790
Grumman F8F-2P Bearcat
121787 (c/n D.1181) became N6821D then N148F. Crashed at Mojave Oct 20, 1973.

122614 ... 122708
Grumman F8F-2 Bearcat
122619 (c/n D.1148) (D.1172 maybe?) stored at NAS Litchfield Park, AZ until 1963. Then registered N7958C, later became N700F, then on civil registry as N14WB. Seen in 2006 in hangar at Placid Lakes APT, Lake Placid, FL. In 2009 owned by Rod Lewis as racer "Rare Bear".

122629 (c/n D.117) (D.1182 maybe?) to civil registry as N1031B, then N777L

122637 (c/n D-1190) to civil registry as N1033B, then noted as N198F at Planes of Fame Jan 13, 2002. Registration N8TF taken up Jul 31, 2008

122648 (c/n D.1201) became N1032B

122708 (c/n D.1261) became N7701C. Crashed at Flagstaff, AZ Sep 16, 1975, killing the pilot, parts of plane used in rebuild of 121707/N1027B. Reported at Breckenridge, TX Apr 9 2008.

TheBoy · **Posted:** Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:19 pm

Funny timing, just looking a few threads down on the Collings Foundation's F6F, the link has a detailed pic of the data plate.

http://americanaeroservices.com/cgi-bin/p/awtp-pa.cgi?d=american-aero-services&type=6341

I've also got at least one "real" G-21 data plate photo I can send you.

Rajay · **Posted:** Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:18 pm

Thanks Ryan.

As best I can tell the data tag on that Collings Hellcat at American Aero (Bu. 41476) reads as Grumman s/n 2742 (without any "A" prefix BTW) which basically corresponds to or synchronizes with Baugher's list which has Bu. 41834 as OEM s/n A-3100 and Bu. 41930 as OEM s/n A-3196 (and which was last registered as N30FG) - you know, except for the lack of an A- prefix that is.

In any case, your Goose data plate doesn't count here. It's not an ex-USN model JRF-5 with a "B" series serial number:
Currently registered as N95467, it was a British JRF-6B with OEM s/n 1161 that was built (according to Mitch Mayborn's Grumman Guidebook) in December 1942, sold under a US Navy procurement contract as serial (or Bu.) no. 0217B, and apparently also assigned British Royal Navy serial no. FP511 during the time it served with 749 Squadron at Piarco, Trinidad starting in March 1943 while coded as "W2-R".

I'm not sure which subsequent USN Bu. number it really got after its return to the US for disposition after the war.
If Baugher's numbers are actually correct, that'd mean that they were assigned almost randomly because they're certainly in no kind of obvious order. Maybe they were assigned as they were actually returned and they were returned in an essentially random sequence. Something to look into further - I've never really tried to figure out if or how many JRF-6B Gooses were lost or written off while in British service and were not returned or otherwise accounted for.

TheBoy · **Posted:** Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:22 pm

Yeah, I've got a picture of N778's data plate somewhere that should be relevant for you. I know our JRF-6B is a whole different challenge here.

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