Warbird Information Exchange

1) A friend's dad has an L-4H built in 1942. Problem is the serial number doesnt match the military records. Did they build any civilian J-3's in 1942? Should it have metal or wood spars, if a true L-4?

2) A friend wrecked his Aeronca L-3A , including breaking the fuselage into 3 or 4 pieces. He is buying an L-3C replacement fuselage. If it were yours, would you rebuild it as an L-3C, using donor parts from his beloved L-3a, or as an L-3A with the C fuselage? He has been told that the L-3A, B,C, and TC-65 fuselages are all slightly different.

Thanks!

I've got a ton of L-4 pics, what is the serial number vs. the military records?

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45-47=-2

An L-4 should have wood spars.
Metal spars came postwar.

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Remember the vets, the wonderful planes they flew and their sacrifices for a future many of them did not live to see.
Note political free signature.
I figure if you wanted my opinion on items unrelated to this forum, you'd ask for it.

I am not an expert (on anything), but I am pretty sure that the B and C model bare fuselage frames are the same. And other than mounting tabs being welded in different spots on the frame for things like trim tab controls, (supposedly three different spots this assembly could be mounted at), radios, (again a couple of different options for location in the aircraft), and whether or not it had throttles located at both crew stations, or just at the front seat location, all the frames were virtually identical. There are certainly others out there that can answer this with more authority than I though.

But as to the REAL question of which way he should rebuild it, that is solely up to him, but if it was mine, I would rebuild it as the A model that he started with (and I am assuming has it registered as) because they are a lot rarer than our "dime a dozen" B and C models. In the end though, it's the guy paying the bills that gets to make the call.

Enough of my rambling...

Steve

Look for a copy of "Box Seat over Hell". Lots of information on the differences between the versions of L-4's. I used to have a copy but I have not seen it in years. I believe in 42 they were making L birds.

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I fly an L-4J but I am hardly an expert on them. All L-4's had wood spars. Mine was one of the last off the line in August 45 ( 45-55209 ) and it has wood spars. When you are talking serial number are you talking the Piper serial number off the data plate the AAC number or the frame number on the fuselage. For example my sn 13975 and my frame number is 13811. I was able to confirm records that my frame number did match my Piper serial number which matched my AAF number.

If you look in Baughers records there were many J 3's assigned AAC numbers in 42 and 43. Also some J 5's as well. I thought the first L-4H models started their run in 1943. 43-29247 to 30547.

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Flying Piper L4-J 45-55209

L-3C fuselage is wider, which could cause problems with landing gear,struts (maybe) and myriad minor things.

My vote would be to fix the A fuselage

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Thanks guys , this is all really good stuff to know. None of the L-4 numbers match u with J. Baugher's site for the Army AIr Corps or the Navy. Will do some more digging. It has a greenhouse , but of course you can get those from univair.
On the L-3, I'm told the military landing gears are the same but there is a difference in the vertical fins between the models. ALso , of course, the A model didnt have the full greenhouse. The A and B's had radio equipment and this was dropped on the C to save weight, I'm told.
Three more questions; 1) THe L-4J had a variable pitch prop. Was it mechanical or hydraulic and are any flying with the variable pitch prop. There seem to be a lot of L-4J's still in Europe.
2) The U.S. insignia, roundel with meatball in 1940 and 41. No meatball in 42. Red surround in 43. Stars and bars, no red hash marks from 1944 to 47.Red hash marks added in 1947. Where does the L birds with the yellow surround on the roundel come into play?
3) Last, Is the L-4 the "Model A Ford" of warbirds in that "you can get any color you want as long as it's green?"

Thanks in advance,

The circle w/star and a yellow surround was a MTO thing for the invasion of North Africa and later Sicily and perhaps Italy. The only L-3s I've ever seen with it were the ones given to the Free French...which makes sense because they were the only ones in that theater.

L-4s came in at least two colors...the OD and some trainers were silver. Postwar, I'd expect some ended up with gloss OD Army colors of the period...remember some served post war until replaced by the L-19. It would be nice to see some photos of those.
And in a book I've seen a silver postwar example with post-1947 star & bars with red arctic markings on floats..I think it was USAF, but I might be wrong.

The Marines got some of the NE-1s...which were L-4s meant for training (in the Navy designation systen N was trainer, E was for Piper). Some USMC aircraft that saw combat were Semi-Gloss Sea Blue with gray undersides.
Navy J-5s / HE-1s, were either silver (really aluminum) or yellow-orange.
Postwar L-21s had many color schemes.


BTW: The Squadron book US Liaison Aircraft in Action says the L-3Bs and Cs were identical execpt for radios...the c didn't have any.

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Remember the vets, the wonderful planes they flew and their sacrifices for a future many of them did not live to see.
Note political free signature.
I figure if you wanted my opinion on items unrelated to this forum, you'd ask for it.

If none of the numbers match up, maybe you don't have an L-4. What numbers do you have?

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45-47=-2

With L-4's it is all about the pedigree. The most im portant thing to have on an L-4 is the fuselage frame tag as shown below. This is the aircraft's identity. With the frame tag number you then pull the original Piper manufacturing record which will have the Piper serial number on it along with the military serial number. The frame tag number should never match the Piper serial number if it does it is a fraud. There have been actual cases of people fabricating bogus frame tags and by mistake making them match the Piper serial number. Without a frame tag you have no pedigree.

Once you have the military serial number you can then pull the aircraft card for the aircraft history. Also most but not all L-4s have leveling points on the window sill that civilian cubs did not.

Hope this helps.

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There are several differences between the L-3A, L-3B and L-3C Aeroncas. The L-3A is the lightest and the L-3C is the heaviest.

The fuselage frame is different on the A vs the B and C. However the width of the fuselage is identical on all models. and wing struts and gear are interchangeable.The diagonal cross members are welded in in different directions aft of the cabin to facilitate the extended greenhouse. The B and C have steel mounting points overhead for mounting of the top portion of the greenhouse, the A model greenhouse frame is made of spruce. The A has the trim crank on the upper left side of the cabin along with early B models, later B and C models have the crank on the left sidewall down low.

The firewall on an A is thin/lightweight and does not have stamped formed edges on it. The side edges are simply crimped to form around the welded steel tubing at the extreme nose of the frame. The B and C models do not have that last hoop of welded tubing up front and rely on a very heavy firewall with stamped formed edges to provide adequate stiffness for the boot cowl.

A and B models have the a large mounting lug welded to the cabin top where the AVA-120 antenna exits the greenhouse just aft of the fuel tank, the C model has no provision for the antenna as they had no radio equipment.

The C model is unique in that it came equipped with rear brakes as it was designated as a trainer. Many B models have had the rear brakes installed later. The A model had no rear throttle when it left the factory and was mounted with clamp on tubing later. The later B and C model throttle mounts are welded on.

The instrument panel on the A was aluminum as with a handful of early B models all subsequent B and C models had wood instrument panels. The A model had aluminum ribs the B and C model came with wood ribs.

The front pilot seat is different on an A vs the later B and C models. The A has welded steel straps and back support while the B and C had less and relied on a wood piece for support on the seat back. The A model seat has factory welded supports for mounting of the Lear radios behind the seat and against the sidewall where the rear throttle would normally have been.

There are more differences but you can see that there are significant differences. Finally the A model will be 25 to 30 lbs lighter than a B model and 30 to 35 lbs lighter than the C.


Finally and most important is that L-3A aircraft have only one serial number. When Aeronca built these twenty aircraft they used the military serial number as the Aeronca serial number. All other L-3s have two serial numbers the mil # and the Aeronca number. A real and very rare A model will show up in the FAA data base with the mil number as serial.

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