Warbird Information Exchange

I have on my desk the excellent 'Golden Age of Flight' desk calendar, with commentary by Walter J Boyne. Now three* reasons I have it are firstly it's got nice pics, secondly Walter's comments on each page are always a level above the 'this is a Spitfire' of most captions, and often thought provoking.

Recently though, this comment seemed to me to have connected two unconnected facts...



"The North American P-51, shown here in invasion stripes, was absolutely fundamental to the success of D Day, June 6, 1944. Had not Mustangs established air superiority over Germany in early 1944, the invasion wouldn't have been possible. Mustangs had the range to escort bombers to Berlin and back."

OK, we're all familiar with the Berlin and back claim, and the air superiority over Germany is a reasonable one (although claimed too early, perhaps?). However the air superiority over Normandy, France and the Low Countries was achieved by both the RAF and the USAAF with the full range of fighters (not to mention the RAF's Circuses, Ramrods and Rhubarbs** etc.) The Mustang certainly played a role, but fundamental? I think that's pushing it a bit far. The P-38s, P-47s, and other RAF aircraft were all involved.

Thoughts?

(*The third reason is every day I get to tear off and screw up something that I intend to...)

** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_RAF_code_names

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James K

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Boyne has always been worth reading, as he is more literate and sees a somewhat bigger picture than most aviation writers. But it's in the nature of buffs of a particular aspect or type of technology to overestimate the role, both of the hardware in general and the particular types. Boyne is certainly an airplane buff and his biases reflect this. I still recall a passage in his generally excellent The Leading Edge where he made some very difficult-to-defend speculations about the role of recon aircraft in influencing the course of World War I. You just have to discount what any aviation fan says about the importance of aviation.

The issue is even sharper with respect to particular types. There probably has been no occasion in any war where it really mattered that a particular make and model of plane, like the P-51, was or was not available. Setting aside the fact that, as you pointed out, Boyne's statements in the calendar are non sequiturs and factually wrong, it really would not have made any difference in D-Day, or in the war generally, if the P-51 had never existed. Other aircraft with similar capabilities were available and, if there were no P-51s, likely still others would have been developed. No airplane in the conflict -- not even the B-29 or Me 262 -- was so unique in its capabilities that having fewer (B-29) or more (Me 262) of them would have changed any significant outcomes.

In a real work of history, not by an aviation buff but by a more rounded historical scholar, it will rarely, if ever, even mention specific types of planes. It will say things like "Allied fighters established air superiority." The fact that adequate numbers of fighter planes having roughly comparable capabilities to those of the enemy were deployed in certain ways is of historical importance. The fact that they were P-51s and not P-38s, P-47s, Spitfires, Typhoons or P-63s is not. That's just fun for buffs.

So yes, Boyne's statements are dubious, but they don't stand out that much from the exaggerated pap that we hear from aviation historians (if there is any such thing) all the time.

August

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Zero Surprise!!...

Does that Mustang in the photo really have ETO invasion stripes?

No, it's in the markings of the 82nd TRS, Philippines, though I'm not sure what particular plane this one is.

Invasions stripes. Hahaha, strike one! I would think this fellow should know better too.

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James...TSK...TSK...Cut him some slack. You know how we Yanks have to be "The BEST" or "The FIRST" at everything.
Don't you always hear, "The world renowned..." or "Recognized all over the world..." when our blowhards are pontificating about something. If they'd stop to think about what they're saying, They'd realize that there are, most likely, people in Madagascar, Botswana, Peru, even
Coober Pedy, that haven't the vaguest clue about what these pontificators are referring to.
Of course, I could be wrong. I was once. I believe it was 1953.

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Holy crap this is amazing! I had this one come up on Monday and all I could utter (out loud in the office) was BULL$HIT!

Ha amazing

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I figure if you wanted my opinion on items unrelated to this forum, you'd ask for it.

I don't think Boyne is that far off the mark. It was the great air battles over Germany in early 1944 that bled the Luftwaffe. Not only did the lose planes, but they were losing the experienced pilots and leaders who flew them. The replacement pilots were not anywhere near the same caliber. Without the Mustang, these battles may not have occurred and the air superiority over the Low Countries and invasion beaches may have been far more contested. Even Goering himself confessed that once he saw Mustangs over Berlin, he knew the war was lost.

Granted, the Mustangs could not have done this all by themselves. They needed the B-17s and B-24s as "bait" to get the Luftwaffe to come up and fight. They also needed the efforts of the RAF and the 9th Air Force to deny the Luftwaffe the use of airfields in France and the Low Countries. Had the Luftwaffe been able to attack the P-51s on their way to the target, the Mustangs would have had to drop tanks and not be able to stay with the bombers. Instead, they were able to carry their drop tanks well into German airspace without fear of attack.

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Zero Surprise!!...

I just posted these statistics on another thread so bear with me on the 'repeat'

There is validity for Boyne's comment

1. The P-51B/C in a very short time entered the Battle for Germany, engaged the LW beyond the range of P-47s (and even P-38s when going to Munich/Regensburg in 1st half of 1944) and wrested control of the air over Germany prior to D-Day.

2. In the timeframe 4 December 1943 through June 5, 1944 the Mustang (including 354th - 9AF) started with one FG, gained three more from mid Feb through March 6 (363FG, 357FG, 4th FG), two more from March 6 (355th and 352 FG) through mid April, and three more from end of April through D-Day (339FG, 359FG and 361st FG) and lost the 354th back to 9th for Invasion ground support and 363rd which was re-formed into tactical Recon.

3. By the end of that period before D-Day, there were only Two Mustang Groups and One P-38 group to provide target escort for each of the three 8th AF Bomb Divisions - meaning never more than ~130-150 escorts per ~ 500 bombers/10 BG per Division, strung out over 30 miles.

4. They (long range escorts) were most often outnumbered by the LW at the point of attack from Hannover to Posnan or Frankfurt to Brux, or Stuttgart to Munich.

5. in that 6 month span, the Mustangs outscored ALL the P-47 Groups combined in both the 8th and 9th AF for All the combat sorties flown by P-47s since the 4th, 78th and 56th started ops in April 1943.

6. In March the P-51 outscored all the 8th and 9th AF P-47s (254 to 176) despite flying less than 35% of the sorties in March, 1944.

7. Starting Feb 20, 1944 (Big Week), the P-51B's were credited with more air victories from Feb 20 through March 8 than all the P-47s in that span (210 to 196), and were never outscored by the P-47 again for the rest of the war - that was the two week 'crossover' -

8. The air way fought between December 1943 and June 5, 1944 was fought in two regions. A. Channel/Zuider Zee through Dummer Lake to Stuttgart, primarily against LuftFlotte 3 (JG 25 and JG 2 with some scattered LW units from Deelen to Geissen to Baden Baden of westernmost JG3 and JG 11. B. The heavily reinforced LuftFlotte Reich responsible for defending the Reich which hed been re-inforces with ~30 squadrons of experienced pilots from East and South Fronts plus 3 Gruppe of ZG/NZG twins.

The Thunderbolts were largely allocated group A. during Penetration and Withdrawal escort while the Mustang and P-38s took on the core German defenses. It was the Mustang thta ground heavily on JG1, JG3, JG11, JG27, JG53, JG300, JG 301, JG302, ZG1, ZG26, ZG76 plus some odd JG26 and JG2 strays over Holland and France and Western Germany

It was LuftFlotte Reich that the P-51 punished so severely in the air and on the ground.

P-47 Jan-May 1944 credited with 764.4 credits
P-51 Jan-May 1944 credited with 1142.5 credits
P-38 Jan-May 1944 credited with 135.0 credits

ETO - Entire War
P-47 2658 credits
P-51 4179 credits
P-38 452 credits

Take what you want and leave the rest..

Having made my comments about P-51B/C role pre D-Day, it was June 7 through August that EVERYBODY got a piece of the LW Fighter Arm's ass because range was not a factor.

The combined RAF, USAAF fighter arme flew four times the sorties and basically put the coup d'gras on JG3, JG26, JG2 plus many re-inforcements deployed from Reich to the Invasion Front.

Range was not a factor, and after D-Day the late model P-47D had more fuel to take them much further east, although still limited to Brunswick through Mulhausen and Ulm until late summer when most of the 8th had converted to P-51s anyway..