Fort Worth, TX Aviation Museum Idea down for the count?
Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:04 pm
Once again the local community fails to support the idea of an aviation museum in Fort Worth....it is amazing that with the local history of Carswell AFB, Lockheed Martin ( Consolidated, Convair) Bell Helicopter, American Airlines, WWI flight training and much more the local community has not supported this idea since it's inception more than 20 years ago in a county with a population of over 1.8 million people....sad indeed. .
The Vintage Flying Museum is a good start but has also been largely ignored (and more) by the city and the population....
Sad indeed.
LAST WEEK
http://www.star-telegram.com/2012/01/24 ... -vote.html
TODAY
http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/City-C ... 14149.html
Rant over...
The Vintage Flying Museum is a good start but has also been largely ignored (and more) by the city and the population....
Sad indeed.
LAST WEEK
FORT WORTH -- Last year, the City Council agreed to loan up to $3 million to the Fort Worth Air and Space Museum Foundation to help produce a temporary exhibit. (called Ascent)
With little to offer as a guarantee of repayment, that temporary exhibit was offered as collateral.
A year later, after the foundation failed to repay any of the $2.53 million it borrowed, the city was prepared to repossess the exhibit and spend $500,000 from the city's airports gas lease project fund to pay the Fort Worth Museum of Science and History to care for the exhibit for one year.
http://www.star-telegram.com/2012/01/24 ... -vote.html
TODAY
Price (the Mayor) favors the second of four options shown to the council on Tuesday, where the city would acquire the exhibit and then liquidate it. Items would be returned, donated or sold off.
"Ascent" is estimated to be worth $3.1 million, but it hasn't been formally appraised as it remains in storage at this time.
Members of the council said they support celebrating Fort Worth's aviation heritage and to educate the youth of its importance to the city, but that there are too many other priorities at this time.
It's not clear what this may mean for the future of the proposed Fort Worth Air & Space Museum, but it's clear that "Ascent" will likely be grounded for good.
http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/City-C ... 14149.html
Rant over...
Re: Fort Worth, TX Aviation Museum Idea down for the count?
Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:34 pm
Okay, a few quick questions and perhaps a different take...
1. What was the $2.53M spent on? Who borrowed it? What was their repayment plan? What were the terms of the loan?
2. What is "Ascent?" Was it appraised before the city offered the loan? Who actually owned "Ascent?"
3. What were the contingency plans if the $2.53M didn't work out the way it was supposed to?
It sounds to me that in questionable economic times, some organization got a municipal loan to do what it wanted to do, and then defaulted. Give me an offer of $2.53M and I'll move heaven and earth to make a museum happen. But with most museums other than the Smithsonian only bringing in <20,000 people a year, how would I make back that kind of money to repay AND further my museum?
The Philadelphia Seaport museum had an $88M (that's Eighty Eight Million Dollars) endowment to support the USS Olympia. In a period of 3 years a local congressman and board member made that $88M into about $7M. That's right, they spent about $81 Million dollars and went to jail for some of the things they did. Getting money can be hard, but it can be real easy to lose it after you get it if you don't have a clear, cogent, realistic plan to turn your awards into self-sustaining institutions. It happens a lot more than people would be willing to admit, and in these economic times, it's going to happen a lot more.
I don't know who your rant was directed against, but before I gave one dollar to any organization, I'd want to know how it was spending it and all the rest of the money coming in. Transparency is a word getting kicked around by the politicians nowadays, and there's a good reason for it. We have a lot of institutions failing right now (not just museums) because what really went on in the board rooms was questionable at best. Any museum trying to move forward in this day and age needs to be well aware of how this is playing out in the public's eye. I'd hate to be the next guy who wanted to put a museum into that region.
I really would like to know more, so if you are up to it, please dig some more and post it here.
1. What was the $2.53M spent on? Who borrowed it? What was their repayment plan? What were the terms of the loan?
2. What is "Ascent?" Was it appraised before the city offered the loan? Who actually owned "Ascent?"
3. What were the contingency plans if the $2.53M didn't work out the way it was supposed to?
It sounds to me that in questionable economic times, some organization got a municipal loan to do what it wanted to do, and then defaulted. Give me an offer of $2.53M and I'll move heaven and earth to make a museum happen. But with most museums other than the Smithsonian only bringing in <20,000 people a year, how would I make back that kind of money to repay AND further my museum?
The Philadelphia Seaport museum had an $88M (that's Eighty Eight Million Dollars) endowment to support the USS Olympia. In a period of 3 years a local congressman and board member made that $88M into about $7M. That's right, they spent about $81 Million dollars and went to jail for some of the things they did. Getting money can be hard, but it can be real easy to lose it after you get it if you don't have a clear, cogent, realistic plan to turn your awards into self-sustaining institutions. It happens a lot more than people would be willing to admit, and in these economic times, it's going to happen a lot more.
I don't know who your rant was directed against, but before I gave one dollar to any organization, I'd want to know how it was spending it and all the rest of the money coming in. Transparency is a word getting kicked around by the politicians nowadays, and there's a good reason for it. We have a lot of institutions failing right now (not just museums) because what really went on in the board rooms was questionable at best. Any museum trying to move forward in this day and age needs to be well aware of how this is playing out in the public's eye. I'd hate to be the next guy who wanted to put a museum into that region.
I really would like to know more, so if you are up to it, please dig some more and post it here.
Re: Fort Worth, TX Aviation Museum Idea down for the count?
Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:23 am
what do you expect? the city council has sold it's taxpayers as Fort Worth the city where the west begins, "cowtown". It makes me want to vomit, we have a nationally reknown art museums, cultural district, and not one councilman can stand up and take notice about it's aviation heritage.
I mean really, they put the museum in area designed to fail, Long Ave.? While the stockyards are in northside no one goes that far into north side to care its a simple fact. It's really a shame, they are trying to make 7th st., into the dallas westend, and we can't even have a decent aircraft museum. No wonder they lost the B-36, bickering and squabbling, has dominated all talks for the better part of 20 years.
We have years of history, consolidated, convair, general dynamics, lockheed martin, bell helicopter, american airlines, carswell afb, nas ft. worth jrb, Seattle just has boeing, and they have a fantastic museum there, one aircraft company, and look how appreciative they are? just makes you think sometimes?
I mean really, they put the museum in area designed to fail, Long Ave.? While the stockyards are in northside no one goes that far into north side to care its a simple fact. It's really a shame, they are trying to make 7th st., into the dallas westend, and we can't even have a decent aircraft museum. No wonder they lost the B-36, bickering and squabbling, has dominated all talks for the better part of 20 years.
We have years of history, consolidated, convair, general dynamics, lockheed martin, bell helicopter, american airlines, carswell afb, nas ft. worth jrb, Seattle just has boeing, and they have a fantastic museum there, one aircraft company, and look how appreciative they are? just makes you think sometimes?
Re: Fort Worth, TX Aviation Museum Idea down for the count?
Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:29 am
Having lived in Ft. Worth for some time in the past, I have often wondered why a large, well funded museum isn't there. The history is there without a doubt. Obviously, as well represented on this board, there are lot of folks on the cutting edge, volunteer level who can put wrench to nut and keep 'em flying. So where is the leadership with the connection to purse strings? There have to be people with sway (and some access to community building cash) over at Lockheed Martin who can speak with the folks at City Hall and try to make something happen (perhaps this WAS the try). Someone with greater insight (and connections) may know, but it has caused me to ponder on more than one occassion.
Re: Fort Worth, TX Aviation Museum Idea down for the count?
Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:00 pm
I keep hearing a rumor that the Fort Worth leadership has been trying to lure Jim Cavanaugh into moving his museum to Alliance Airport. Of course, I've never heard that rumor from anyone who has any connection with the museum or with the Fort Worth leadership, only from "members of the public". So, until I hear something real from someone real, I will have to dismiss the rumor as... um... "male bovine defecation". 
Re: Fort Worth, TX Aviation Museum Idea down for the count?
Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:08 pm
I had never heard of this project before. Granted, I live on the other side of DFW ...
There is a lot of aviation history on display in the DFW area. You've got two outfits at Meacham Airport in north Ft. Worth, not far from where this was supposed to be. Petty squabbling appears to have split those two entites apart - I'm not privy to the details, but it would appear that both entities are hurting as a result. The Southwest Aviation Museum was located at the entrance to General Dynamics, but they were run off because the city and GD considered it an eyesore (This is where the B-36 that has been in so much news was). That 'collection' of aircraft was split up rather than being moved to another location - those aircraft would have formed a great basis of a new museum/display, but there wasn't enough support.
You've got the CR Smith AA Museum at DFW. You've got Frontiers of Flight over at Love Field. You've got private outfits like Cavanaugh at Addison, and sprinklings of warbirds all over the metroplex.
My first thought when I saw this thread was 'why another museum, why not just expand/renovate/reinvigorate what we already have?' Ft. Worth, for a large metro city, is fairly small, though the entire DFW area is big. Plus, DFW is not exactly a hotbed of tourism - Nice place to live, but not much reason to go visit. I don't see how anyone could have thought there was enough potential demand for another standalone museum beyond what is already here.
I don't know for sure, but it sounds like someone sold the City Council a pipedream, and ran off with the loot!
There is a lot of aviation history on display in the DFW area. You've got two outfits at Meacham Airport in north Ft. Worth, not far from where this was supposed to be. Petty squabbling appears to have split those two entites apart - I'm not privy to the details, but it would appear that both entities are hurting as a result. The Southwest Aviation Museum was located at the entrance to General Dynamics, but they were run off because the city and GD considered it an eyesore (This is where the B-36 that has been in so much news was). That 'collection' of aircraft was split up rather than being moved to another location - those aircraft would have formed a great basis of a new museum/display, but there wasn't enough support.
You've got the CR Smith AA Museum at DFW. You've got Frontiers of Flight over at Love Field. You've got private outfits like Cavanaugh at Addison, and sprinklings of warbirds all over the metroplex.
My first thought when I saw this thread was 'why another museum, why not just expand/renovate/reinvigorate what we already have?' Ft. Worth, for a large metro city, is fairly small, though the entire DFW area is big. Plus, DFW is not exactly a hotbed of tourism - Nice place to live, but not much reason to go visit. I don't see how anyone could have thought there was enough potential demand for another standalone museum beyond what is already here.
I don't know for sure, but it sounds like someone sold the City Council a pipedream, and ran off with the loot!
Re: Fort Worth, TX Aviation Museum Idea down for the count?
Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:11 pm
I've heard the Cavanaugh rumors as well, and I think it would be a great thing if they were able to move over there. Anyone who has been to Addison to visit them know how cramped it is there, and how conflicted the airport is. A fresh, big new location at Alliance would be outstanding - lots of room for the facilities, two big large runways, excellent infrastructure ... I hope it happens.
Getting Cavanaugh to Alliance and LSFM over toe Ellington would be two excellent moves. One of those is going to happen, hopefully the other as well.
Getting Cavanaugh to Alliance and LSFM over toe Ellington would be two excellent moves. One of those is going to happen, hopefully the other as well.
Re: Fort Worth, TX Aviation Museum Idea down for the count?
Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:54 pm
A little digging ...
www.fwasm.org
The Foundation was established back in 2009 as a non-profit by the FW mayor's office to study the feasibility of creating an aviation museum in Ft. Worth. This may explain the lack of outrage from the mayor's office about the apparently 'missing' money.
The members of the Foundation's board are a city councilman, and business bigwigs from the Ft. Worth area.
As to what happened to the 'missing' money? I do not have any inside info, but from the looks of it it might have paid to create the Ascend exhibit, and a bunch of feasibility studies. I don't think there are any criminals to track down, but it might not have been a wise use of taxpayer funds.
The Ascend collection at the center of things is not an aviation museum in the form that WIXers would consider a museum. It is more like a kids' attrraction at a Science museum to get kids interested in aviation. I see no aviation artifacts in any of the photos, just kids activities.
http://www.fwasm.org/exhibit.htm
www.fwasm.org
The Foundation was established back in 2009 as a non-profit by the FW mayor's office to study the feasibility of creating an aviation museum in Ft. Worth. This may explain the lack of outrage from the mayor's office about the apparently 'missing' money.
The members of the Foundation's board are a city councilman, and business bigwigs from the Ft. Worth area.
As to what happened to the 'missing' money? I do not have any inside info, but from the looks of it it might have paid to create the Ascend exhibit, and a bunch of feasibility studies. I don't think there are any criminals to track down, but it might not have been a wise use of taxpayer funds.
The Ascend collection at the center of things is not an aviation museum in the form that WIXers would consider a museum. It is more like a kids' attrraction at a Science museum to get kids interested in aviation. I see no aviation artifacts in any of the photos, just kids activities.
http://www.fwasm.org/exhibit.htm
Re: Fort Worth, TX Aviation Museum Idea down for the count?
Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:25 pm
Thank Zane for getting me stirred up! 
The city of Fort Worth and it's wealthy benefactors don't seem to care about supporting anything unless, it's oil, gas or cattle. They spent over $250K to a Canadian company to do a study several years ago to determine where the best location would be to put an aviation museum. The whole time Doc Hospers is jumping up and down saying "Helloooo you've already got an aviation museum in Fort Worth - the Vintage Flying Museum!" Imagine what he could have done to "Chuckie" and/or the hangar with the $250K? Miraculously the study said that the best place to put an aviation museum in Fort Worth was at Alliance Airport, Ross Perot's place, miles away from most of the tourist traffic. I'm sure the ol' Perot boys had no influence on that. Not at Meacham, which is literally 5 minutes from downtown and the historic Stockyards, Billy Bobs and Sundance Square. Doc showed me the study, it was as thick as a phone book and wasn't worth the paper it was printed on.
Doc and all of the other aviation museum interests in the area (B-36 Assoc, OV-10 Assoc, etc) were invited to sit in on a Mayors commitee to try to bring everyone together and sing kumbya and create one big happy Fort Worth Aviation Museum. All they had to do was turn over thier museum's to the City of Fort Worth and everything would be ok. Well, you can imagine the response they got.
So now what does Fort Worth have to show for it's aviation heritage? A B-36, no wait that's in Pima, a B-58, no that's in Galveston, a B-17, no that's in Virginia. Sadly all of which are better off in their new homes (until the hurricane hit the B-58).
Then they loan this money for this "Assinine" er, uh I mean "Ascent" thing and get taken to the cleaners. Again I can think of a lot of great things that the VFM could do with 2.53 million dollars that would really benefit Fort Worth and bring the VFM up a couple of notches.
The VFM still exists today because of Doc and Chuckie Hospers stubborness, a few well placed strong supporters, and whole lot of dedicated, hard working volunteers, a ton of very loyal fans and supporters - not because of anything the City of Fort Worth has done.
Thank you to all who support your local aviation museums!!
Rant over - sorry this hit a nerve.
The city of Fort Worth and it's wealthy benefactors don't seem to care about supporting anything unless, it's oil, gas or cattle. They spent over $250K to a Canadian company to do a study several years ago to determine where the best location would be to put an aviation museum. The whole time Doc Hospers is jumping up and down saying "Helloooo you've already got an aviation museum in Fort Worth - the Vintage Flying Museum!" Imagine what he could have done to "Chuckie" and/or the hangar with the $250K? Miraculously the study said that the best place to put an aviation museum in Fort Worth was at Alliance Airport, Ross Perot's place, miles away from most of the tourist traffic. I'm sure the ol' Perot boys had no influence on that. Not at Meacham, which is literally 5 minutes from downtown and the historic Stockyards, Billy Bobs and Sundance Square. Doc showed me the study, it was as thick as a phone book and wasn't worth the paper it was printed on.
Doc and all of the other aviation museum interests in the area (B-36 Assoc, OV-10 Assoc, etc) were invited to sit in on a Mayors commitee to try to bring everyone together and sing kumbya and create one big happy Fort Worth Aviation Museum. All they had to do was turn over thier museum's to the City of Fort Worth and everything would be ok. Well, you can imagine the response they got.
So now what does Fort Worth have to show for it's aviation heritage? A B-36, no wait that's in Pima, a B-58, no that's in Galveston, a B-17, no that's in Virginia. Sadly all of which are better off in their new homes (until the hurricane hit the B-58).
Then they loan this money for this "Assinine" er, uh I mean "Ascent" thing and get taken to the cleaners. Again I can think of a lot of great things that the VFM could do with 2.53 million dollars that would really benefit Fort Worth and bring the VFM up a couple of notches.
The VFM still exists today because of Doc and Chuckie Hospers stubborness, a few well placed strong supporters, and whole lot of dedicated, hard working volunteers, a ton of very loyal fans and supporters - not because of anything the City of Fort Worth has done.
Thank you to all who support your local aviation museums!!
Rant over - sorry this hit a nerve.
Re: Fort Worth, TX Aviation Museum Idea down for the count?
Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:47 pm
I will echo what Bill is saying and also add that Veteran Memorial Air Park with OV-10 Association, FAC Museum and B-36 group worked their hearts out and volunteers to the bone to put on activities for the last year for the North Texas Aviation Centennial mentioned at the website http://www.fwasm.org/index.html. I attended several of the events and am a member of VMAP, FAC Museum and OV-10 Assn. Never did I hear of Ascent or the display at the Museum......maybe that is my fault. But to hear what is being said here....it was set up to fail. I did hear early in the year that there were supposed plans to help the existing museums and aviation groups in the area and those were just blown away early on. That last comment is paraphrasing someone who was somewhat bitter and may not have basis in fact but only said from emotion.
In parting it is a real shame that the city fathers and influential community members don't realize the aviation history that they have in this area and promote it rather than create boondoggles. Well off my soapbox too.
In parting it is a real shame that the city fathers and influential community members don't realize the aviation history that they have in this area and promote it rather than create boondoggles. Well off my soapbox too.
Re: Fort Worth, TX Aviation Museum Idea down for the count?
Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:05 am
CrewDawg wrote:Miraculously the study said that the best place to put an aviation museum in Fort Worth was at Alliance Airport, Ross Perot's place, miles away from most of the tourist traffic. I'm sure the ol' Perot boys had no influence on that. Not at Meacham, which is literally 5 minutes from downtown and the historic Stockyards, Billy Bobs and Sundance Square. Doc showed me the study, it was as thick as a phone book and wasn't worth the paper it was printed on.
Whatyoutalkingbout'thereboybestplacetoputamuseumisatalliancenowlookatthischarthereboythischartheresays.....
:CHARTS:
(I had to, really I did)
Re: Fort Worth, TX Aviation Museum Idea down for the count?
Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:08 am
Well, Alliance could house all the aviation museums in the area very easily before too long. With AA's announcement yesterday that it is closing its Alliance maintenance facility, there are two HUGE hangars and a bunch of support buildings that will be empty before too long ...