Instead of "Finding one in a Barn....."

[Aircraft Mech Paul]

Hi Guys,

I really didn't know how to phrase the topic of my post/question properly but I wanted to get your attention in some way, a legitimate way.

I was having a long conversation with a long time friend of mine and he is a big fan of WW II fighters, especially the German Aircraft, more specific, the FW-190. But our conversation swung from some of the new build aircraft to some of the current aircraft that have been in long term storage and have begun their journey back to airworthy status. And even some of the recovery work of the Naval Air museum in Lake Michigan and other places, and the B-25C that was pulled from the lake some 2-3 years ago, to the recovery of Swamp Ghost and the the recovery of the hulks of fighters and aircraft in the Pacific, now being redone in New Zealand.

I bring up all of this to broach a topic that my friend told me of. He used to know Doug Champlain and quite a few WW II vets from when he worked in Phoenix at an airline. Now, quite a few of these WW II vets were in the Army and at the end of the war they were in search of technology for use by the United States and we all know of, I believe it was called Operation Lusty (?) (forgive me it's late and I am tired, but I wanted to get this out while I still recalled what I wanted to ask), Germany towards the end was manufacturing much of their hi-tech stuff inside caves, which included missiles, jets, and their front line fighters, the FW-190's, and BF-109's, ME-262's, ME-163's.

Now...the question I am asking is that the US and their allies litterally blew the caves shut in place, full of Nazi machinery and product according to what my friend related to me as what was related to him. My question is this, has anyone even thought of looking into things such as these ? I mean, on this forum I have heard of digs of long ago former airfields where someone found part of an engine block. Or, like the Mid Atlantic Air Museum they followed a story and pulled out a plum of a plane in their P-61 Black Widow.

I'm open for discussion here...or honest debate....I'll accept either. Just, please keep it civil.

Cheers to all,

Paul

[Jesse C.]

I recently saw one of the extreme building shows where they covered some tunneling being done in Germany and they showed a cave that was once used to build V-1 and V-2 rockets. The cave had been turned into a museum covering the holocaust and how prisoners where used as slave labor to build the rockets. They showed some of the things they have found and it was all junk, total and absolut junk. Water has been seeping into the cave for decades and the water turned everything to mush.

If there are such caves, and we keep hearing stories about them, I really doubt that anything that was worth saving is pretty far gone by now. If someone has the cash, time and permits to dig, I wish them the best of luck.

[robkamm]

My father tells me stories like this from his time as a kid in post war Germany. he told me about underground hangers that were raised up and blown up in place. he and his friends used to play in them. i always wondered whats still there.

[Aircraft Mech Paul]

I recently saw one of the extreme building shows where they covered some tunneling being done in Germany and they showed a cave that was once used to build V-1 and V-2 rockets. The cave had been turned into a museum covering the holocaust and how prisoners where used as slave labor to build the rockets. They showed some of the things they have found and it was all junk, total and absolut junk. Water has been seeping into the cave for decades and the water turned everything to mush.

If there are such caves, and we keep hearing stories about them, I really doubt that anything that was worth saving is pretty far gone by now. If someone has the cash, time and permits to dig, I wish them the best of luck.

Good Morning Guys,

Yes, I would quite imagine that much of it has been reduced to junk at this point, BUT, if one cave were to be excavated, and found in somewhat fair to (time given) pristine condition, then what the remains found could be used as patterns for more of multiple different variants of all kinds of fighters, don't you agree. I say that given the fact of how the NASM loaned out their ME-262 to become what are becoming the new build -262's, would that potentially be a possibility for more Axis fighter production on the collector front ? I too wish whomever has the time, money and permits, as well as patience. But, do you not agree that the potential out weighs the risk involved, especially when you factor in the cost of the expeditions to recover and ultimately restore an aircraft as especially complex as the P-38E Glacier Girl. I what IS or rather COULD be recovered could be used as patterns the potential it would seem as endless.

Your thoughts ??

Paul

[old iron]

Paul wrote:

I say that given the fact of how the NASM loaned out their ME-262 to become what are becoming the new build -262's,

It was the Willow Grove Naval Air Station that loaned out the Me.262 (2-seat trainer) as templates for construction of reproductions. After the restored 262 came back to Willow Grove it was displayed there for a while, but the navy could not resist transferring it (and a Arado 196) to the NMNA museum in Pensacola (The Arado was severely damaged during transport - anyone have information on the condition and circumstances of this incident?).

The NASM Me.262, by the way, has an interested combat history.

[redvanner]

Hi Guys,

I really didn't know how to phrase the topic of my post/question properly but I wanted to get your attention in some way, a legitimate way.

I was having a long conversation with a long time friend of mine and he is a big fan of WW II fighters, especially the German Aircraft, more specific, the FW-190. But our conversation swung from some of the new build aircraft to some of the current aircraft that have been in long term storage and have begun their journey back to airworthy status. And even some of the recovery work of the Naval Air museum in Lake Michigan and other places, and the B-25C that was pulled from the lake some 2-3 years ago, to the recovery of Swamp Ghost and the the recovery of the hulks of fighters and aircraft in the Pacific, now being redone in New Zealand.

I bring up all of this to broach a topic that my friend told me of. He used to know Doug Champlain and quite a few WW II vets from when he worked in Phoenix at an airline. Now, quite a few of these WW II vets were in the Army and at the end of the war they were in search of technology for use by the United States and we all know of, I believe it was called Operation Lusty (?) (forgive me it's late and I am tired, but I wanted to get this out while I still recalled what I wanted to ask), Germany towards the end was manufacturing much of their hi-tech stuff inside caves, which included missiles, jets, and their front line fighters, the FW-190's, and BF-109's, ME-262's, ME-163's.

Now...the question I am asking is that the US and their allies litterally blew the caves shut in place, full of Nazi machinery and product according to what my friend related to me as what was related to him. My question is this, has anyone even thought of looking into things such as these ? I mean, on this forum I have heard of digs of long ago former airfields where someone found part of an engine block. Or, like the Mid Atlantic Air Museum they followed a story and pulled out a plum of a plane in their P-61 Black Widow.

I'm open for discussion here...or honest debate....I'll accept either. Just, please keep it civil.

Cheers to all,

Paul

@Paul: Well, another problem will arise i f someone can find any a/c in a cave / underground hangar or anywhere else: AFAIK German Government is officially sole owner of every item used / owned by former Luftwaffe, German Armed Forces or any other part of former state institutions. And they are known usually not to sell / give away anything found. Only possibility as I see it, is make a deal of some kind or another with an official German Museum as partner and (later) owner of the parts or aircrafts or items found. Just AFAIK deals between private individuals and the government are difficult at least.

Michael

[jtramo]

Even properly stored vehicles can end up nearly destroyed

http://www.allpar.com/history/auto-show ... psule.html

[eze240]

Speaking of caves and such.......
I don't remember if it was on here or not, Has anyone seen the pictures of the 3 german uboats buried in one of the old sub pens. It is near an airport as I recall, something like two type XXI's and one type IX? They were difficult to get to but were accessable until a couple years ago. They were trapped/ partly crushed by the collapse of the roof, recently a car park was built over the top of the site.
Its a good example of the reality of finding buried/hidden stuff like that.....

[robkamm]

I just asked dad about it this morning. they were in his home town of Erfurt. airports name was Bindersleben. i remembers at least 3 hangers. they had grass on the roof an would full retract into underground hangers. they were blown up / bombed during or after the war so stop there use.he played in them in the 40s.

[Richard W.]

Speaking of caves and such.......
I don't remember if it was on here or not, Has anyone seen the pictures of the 3 german uboats buried in one of the old sub pens. It is near an airport as I recall, something like two type XXI's and one type IX? They were difficult to get to but were accessable until a couple years ago. They were trapped/ partly crushed by the collapse of the roof, recently a car park was built over the top of the site.
Its a good example of the reality of finding buried/hidden stuff like that.....

Yeah, I read about that one too. It's the Elbe II bunker in Hamburg. Three damaged Type XXIs still in it.

Last I read about it the authorities had filled it in all the open space with gravel so that no one can enter.

[StangStung]

You can find some decent pics of the Elbe II bunker (pre-gravel filling I presume) over at u-boat.net:

http://www.uboat.net/gallery/Elbe-1/

Enjoy.

[robkamm]

were are the uboats? under water? pictures just show concrete and water. am i missing something?

[Rossco]

were are the uboats? under water? pictures just show concrete and water. am i missing something?

Try this...
http://www.uboat.net/history/hamburg_elbe2.htm

Also do some research on the Auto Union 1930,s race cars in Germany.

[clifton rogers]

Even properly stored vehicles can end up nearly destroyed

http://www.allpar.com/history/auto-show ... psule.html

While its true that the car looks REALLY bad... check out what a little elbow grease can do.
(Its still in bad shape but, wow...)
http://www.safestrustremover.com/Miss-B ... esult.html

BTW, Howdy Y'all, I've been a lurker on here since the late Gary Austin started work on Ol 927. I love this site.

[RickH]

Howdy Y'all

Howdy, back, Clifton, welcome. Well I guess we know where Clifton comes from !

That Belvedere would have probably faired quite a bit better if the vault had been sealed properly !