Me-109/Bf-109 Questions

Pogo · **Posted:** Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:53 am

From the Things I've always wondered but never asked or otherwise learned department:

1. Me-109 or Bf-109? What's proper usage?

2. What's up with the split flap looking thingies on the '109, how do they work?

Thanks!

Clifford Bossie · **Posted:** Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:20 am

Bf 109 would be proper. The Bf standing for Bayerische Fluzeugwerke. While the Me 109 (or ME-109, or Me-109) moniker is usually applied that seems to be more of an allied designation. However, (always a qualifier) many wartime Lufftwaffe manuals carry the designation "Me 109", so I guess one should not be too pedantic when it comes to the Bf 109. It is not as cut and dried as a P-47, which will never be P47, or p-47. But of course could be an F-47... :lol:

Pogo · **Posted:** Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:10 am

Clifford Bossie wrote:

Bf 109 would be proper. The Bf standing for Bayerische Fluzeugwerke.

Thank you. But I've never heard of Bayerische Fluzeugwerke....? Thought Messerschmidt made 'em??

The Inspector · **Posted:** Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:26 am

Bayerische was Willy's employer when it went out of business, he managed to round up enough capital to restart the company. It was a bit later on when it was reincorporated as Messershmitt.
The split flap 'thingies' are the thermostatically controlled radiator cooling shutters, they operated completely automatically and could give rookie pilots quite a scare when all set up to land and bascially have what amounts to a dive brake pop open top and bottom because the coolant was feeling 'warmish' causing a violent dropping of one or the other wings.

lmritger · **Posted:** Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:39 am

Narrowing things down a bit:

Bayerische Flugzeugwerke (BFW) was incorporated as Messerschmitt AG on 11 July 1937. All designs from prior to this incorporation carried the prefix "BF"; all those afterwards carred "Me", at least from the official standpoint of the RLM. But this made little difference either to the pilots of the Luftwaffe, the Allies, or indeed even many of the factory's own workers as "Me 109" is frequently used in Messerschmitt's own documentation, as well as in Luftwaffe strength/loss docs and Allied combat reports.

As to the flaps- a slight clarification, the upper inboard flap and radiator lip flap were thermostatically controlled, the lower inboard flap was mechanically linked to the mid-span flap. If you look at enough photos of Bf 109Fs through Ks, you can start to judge how soon a given photo was taken after the aircraft landed by the position of these upper inboard flaps. When the engine was warm, these flaps would raise noticeably above the level of the wing itself and then progressively drop down as cooler water passed the thermostatic control valve (or as the aircraft itself cooled off after operation).

Inspector, I'd be interested to read a report of the phenomenon you describe, as the system was not designed to work in such a fashion- precisely because such a rapid movement could cause aerodynamic instability and put you in the weeds very quickly!

Lynn

The Inspector · **Posted:** Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:04 am

Just stuff I've read over the decades and might slighty disremember completely, But I do remember one of the CAF pilot reports on the Spanish 109 in AIR PROGRESS back in the 60's, the pilot made quite a deal of the 'unpredictable actions' caused by the shutters opening and closing on their own.
I do know the last time I walked from Honolulu to San Francisco, I kept sinking in to my knees :wink:

If we were all perfect, we'd have our own shafts of light to move around on instead of cars.

Pogo · **Posted:** Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:21 am

Aw, I know Inspector's just being modest. I'll continue to expect perfection from him.

Seriously, thank you, gentlemen. I've only studied US aircraft, and somehow have never seen a '109 or Buchon (did I get that right?) up close in my life, so I'm having a hard time visualizing the various articulating parts mentioned. So, if anybody has any pertinent pictures.......................?

Brad · **Joined:** Thu Apr 29, 2004 10:30 pm **Posts:** 1131

The Inspector wrote:

But I do remember one of the CAF pilot reports on the Spanish 109 in AIR PROGRESS back in the 60's, the pilot made quite a deal of the 'unpredictable actions' caused by the shutters opening and closing on their own.

I think you are actually remembering the action of the wing slats. That has been mentioned in several reports about the 109.

The Inspector · **Posted:** Thu Jul 15, 2010 1:50 pm

GOOGLE 109 lair.com

Dave Cheeseman · **Joined:** Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:49 pm **Posts:** 171

Rick Volker is flying the Russell BF109E4, he will be at the Midland air show this weekend with the 109.

Cheers Dave C

Bluedharma · **Posted:** Fri Jul 16, 2010 4:40 pm

Clifford Bossie wrote:

Bf 109 would be proper. The Bf standing for Bayerische Fluzeugwerke. While the Me 109 (or ME-109, or Me-109) moniker is usually applied that seems to be more of an allied designation. However, (always a qualifier) many wartime Lufftwaffe manuals carry the designation "Me 109", so I guess one should not be too pedantic when it comes to the Bf 109. It is not as cut and dried as a P-47, which will never be P47, or p-47. But of course could be an F-47... :lol:

Sounds about right.
Bf is on the dataplate...

Augsburgeagle · **Joined:** Sat Aug 16, 2008 2:17 am **Posts:** 112

Hi,
The data plates you show above are modern repros,
Augsburgeagle

JDK · **Posted:** Sat Jul 17, 2010 5:28 am

lmritger wrote:

Bayerische Flugzeugwerke (BFW) was incorporated as Messerschmitt AG on 11 July 1937. All designs from prior to this incorporation carried the prefix "BF"; all those afterwards carred "Me", at least from the official standpoint of the RLM. But this made little difference either to the pilots of the Luftwaffe, the Allies, or indeed even many of the factory's own workers as "Me 109" is frequently used in Messerschmitt's own documentation, as well as in Luftwaffe strength/loss docs and Allied combat reports.

Very good summary. Also, it's always (usually) a Bf 108, always an Me 262, never a Bf 262. And a nit pick, it's Bf not BF. But Lynn knows that.

Pogo · **Posted:** Sat Jul 17, 2010 9:23 am

JDK wrote:

And a nit pick, it's Bf not BF.

This is actually one of the major points I was after, to wit, how to type 'er in correctly. I recently became somewhat intimately involved in German WWI aircraft, and am still only about 97.953% confident that 'D.VII' and 'Dr.I' are correct..... :roll:

My gut instinct always said that it was an indicator of sorts; that ME-109 came from those who knew little about this stuff, Me 109 from those who know a bit more, and Bf 109 revealed the specimen as a fellow OCD case.

Back to the split flaps, understand they're equivalent to cowl flaps and/or shutters for radiators, oil coolers, etc., and were not on earlier models. Dang, am I getting smart or what? :bs:

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