Warbird Information Exchange

The P-80 posts got me to thinking. If the P-80 had made it to europe earlier, how would it have fared in aerial combat against the Me-262? Or any prop-driven foes?

Anybody got any WAG's?

Chuck Yeager is on record as saying that the ME 262 handled like a P-80 without tip tanks. That leads me to think that one on one it would be a matter of pilot skill. Since the US would have been able to field a lot more P-80s than the Germans 262s could (and keep them flying longer) superior flight and squadron tactics would probably have overwhelmed the German jets. Versus the remainder of the Luftwaffe the P 80 would have had it all over them in terms of speed though I wonder about armament as there were a lot of people outside the US in 1945 that considered even the might .50 caliber to be too light against armored aircraft. Would there have been room for even one 20 mm gun in a P-80? The nose seems very similar to a P-38 but that could all be superficial.

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Do any ETO photos exist? I've only seen the MTO photos. > http://www.1stfighter.org/photos/P80inItaly.html

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Maybe a T-33 to Me-262 comparison will be available in the near future? Can't wait for the P-59 tp Me-262 comparison anyhow....

What would be very cool to see would be a dogfight between the Me-262 and a Gloster Meteor! I think the Dehavilland Vampire was also flying before war's end.
The Hispano HA-200 Saetta jet was Willy Messechrmitt's first post war design and could be used for dogfights although my guess is that the T-33 would eat it's lunch.
Seems like there was some cooperation betwen Heinkel and the jet designs that evolved into the Fouga Magister CM-170 which first flew in 1952.

The P-80 and 262 were comparatively tested in Ohio postwar by the USAF. IIRC, the results of the tests were summarized in Walter Boyne's book on the 262 and, again IIRC, the 262 came out the winner in every respect except for pilot view. The 262 probably was marginally better than the early Meteor as well, and probably also the Vampire, straight-wing F-84, F9F, etc. The P-59 wasn't even competitive with the late Bf 109s or Fw 190s, let alone the 262. The first jets to be better than the 262 likely were the MiG-15 and F-86, which of course were designed with extensive use of German aerodynamic data and features derived from the 262 program.

August

Well, well well... yes, on paper Me 262 was definitely superior against Mustang, Spitfire, La-7.... but combat practice show it different. In fighter to fighter combat they did not claim so much their superiority. So if compared the fact that the Industry won the war, not the Generals, I think that P-80 would simply wipe of Me 262 in 1945/ 1946. Soviets send into combat superior number of combat machines, US did the same... Hitlers idea was born dead!

Born Dead:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-kwNNLmhd8

Cheers

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I think you would need to discuss the engine reliablity here as well. The 262 had serious issues with engine reliability and endurance. "IF" the P-80 had a better engine at that time I think the 262 pilot would have been in serious trouble.

Tom P.

No, combat practice didn't show it different. The tactical circumstances often were that the 262 were beset by swarms of Allied planes catching them at vulnerable moments, taking off or landing. Under those circumstances, the Allies could have been flying P-36s or Hurricanes and Germany could have been flying F-18s, the results would have been the same. When the 262 got up to speed and altitude, with enough gas and non-defective engines and a competent pilot, its superiority to other types was clear, but that rarely happened and when it did, Allied pilots had enough sense not to tangle with it. So, yes, under the circumstances of 1945, the P-80 probably would have done well against the 262, but not for reasons that have anything to do with the qualities of the P-80 or the 262.

August

I think the P-80 was better suited for dogfighting. The Mig-15's combat history hints at how ineffective low-velocity heavy cannon are in a dogfight, and the Me262's temperamental engines did not permit it to exploit its full theoretical performance. I imagine the P-80 would've fared better as the fight wore on, too, when both planes bled energy and slowed down. The 262 was heavier, less maneuverable and prone to engine fires under heavy acceleration.

I'd put my money on the P-80, all other things (like pilot experience or numbers) being equal.

Of course, there is no guarantee that the Luftwaffe would have kept building the 262 had the P-80 began to appear in the air. They had many other designs in prototype, and the 262 itself could've been improved. Many of the plane's shortcomings by that time were the result of material shortages, though, and it was far too late to fix them.

The only thing the Germans could've done in 1945 to make any jet plane a credible threat was to strap a nuclear bomb to it. But that wasn't likely to happen, either.

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Fritz, maybe so, but in 1945 the German fighter pilot's priority wasn't having romantic duels with enemy fighters, it was getting away from those fighters so he could get a shot at the bombers and try to stop them from killing his wife and kids, or I guess considering the age of German pilots by that time, more likely his parents. This was what the 262 could really do, once it got up to speed, compared to any prop driven fighter; pick and choose the time of combat and disengage more or less at will. Of course then the 262 pilot was left figuring out how to land without being jumped by 5 Mustangs or Spits in the pattern. Mustangs or Spits were probably better than P-80s for jumping 262s with their gear down; up high, the P-80 would have closed the performance gap somewhat, but not completely.

The artificial, one on one, equivalent-skilled pilot dogfight scenario abstracted from the real tactical situation was basically what was tested in the Wright Field trials, and again IIRC, the 262 did very nicely against the P-80. I'm too lazy to fish out the Boyne book and check it though.

August

The question is about Me 262 vs P-80 but maybe real question could be P-80 against Go 229 or Ta 183. Anyway- it is good to have book Me 262 combat diary and see combat experience and day by day account. One pilot said that their engines are rated to live 25 hours and in combat they last only seven hours.

In general Me 262 was excellent platform to attack bombers but also could engage fighters. P-47 was also heavy but was also used with great success Bitter problem with Me 262 was mainframe construction and it was very dangerous to flew it in very high speed, it was not able to control and many pilot lost their life due to this problem. Interesting to note that former Ju 88 pilots are much better adopted to this plane, then former single engine pilots, due to the experience to fly with two engine machines.

After this topic I have wish to quick build one Revell 1/72 scale model

Cheers

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Many great comments already posted so I won't rehash them except to say that both the ME-262 and P-80 were great, technology breakthroughs. I believe it comes down to this. The ME-262 was OVERWHELMED by Allied pilots who were able to exploit the weakness of a superior aircraft and LIMIT the ability of the ME-262 pilots to exploit the strengths of the ME-262.

I would like to add that if we HAD slowly been able to replace the P-51/Spit with P-80s and Meteors, these same pilots would have played to those aircraft's advantage too. By wars end, only the most skilled pilots were flying the 262, unlike the plans for the Volksjeager. Those same skilled pilots were getting fewer and fewer as each day passed. Not to mention the lack of quality fuel.

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Cheers!

Lance Jones