Warbird Information Exchange

Hi everyone,

I started a post on the vintage side of WIX about what would be a good first vintage airplane. The conversation then went to talks of insurance and taildragger time.

I'm wanting to eventually get checked out on my air museum's airplanes, of which are all tailwheel, and obviously need a load of tail time.

How would you suggest a young pilot like me (or anyone else for that matter) get the taildragger time up? Has anyone ever gone through to get on someone's insurance and fly their airplanes? What other ways are there?

Any suggestions on how to get some cheap taildragger time would be greatly appreciated. I'm sure there's a lot of people on WIX that are trying to figure out how to qualify to to fly warbirds... so this could be a good conversation.

Cheers,

David

If you are tailwheel qualified, check out your local glider club or operation. When working for a soaring outfit too many years ago, I could plan on 20-40 tows a day. The experience was valuable due to working in windy and turbulent conditions in Super Cubs and Citabrias.

To get insurance coverage, most companies are looking at 250 hours+ in tail wheel time just to be considered. (notice how they like to look at total time, not tailwheel landings or the like)....

Mark H

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Fly safe or you get to meet me .......

Banner towing is quick to build time.

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Long Live the N3N-3 "The Last US Military Bi-Plane" 1940-1959
Badmouthing Stearmans on WIX since 2005

Obviously any way you can get paid to fly a taildragger is what you're looking for. Some examples that others have posted are glider- and banner-towing. Failing that, if you're in a financial situation to be able to buy into a Cub or Champ, fly the hell out of it for a while, and sell it, you can do that.

If you are a CFI, the best possible thing you can do is to find a local school or club that has a taildragger and will build you up and let you teach in it. There's no more valuable tailwheel experience, in terms of quick analysis of situations, and proper reaction, than that which you will gain through dealing with not only your own, but others' mistakes.

In any case, you want to be always expanding your envelope and seeking out the worst possible conditions to fly in. Be proficient in nasty gusty crosswinds, wheel and 3-point landings, flaps, no flaps, full-rudder slips, one wheel touch-and-goes, power-off approaches, aerobatics, etc. If you can, get checked out in the backseat of whatever you're flying, or something blind like a Stearman. The more diverse ways you can fly the airplane, and the wider range of situations in which you can not only handle, but are comfortable in, the better.

I agree, but with one caveat - always know your limits! Flying in the "worst possible conditions" may not be the most prudent or safest thing to do if you only have a few hours of taildragger time and you're solo. Yes, you should always try to challenge yourself and learn, but do it smartly and only within your own capabilities. One of the most important things to learn early on in your training is using good airmanship and judgment. It would not be good airmanship to fly a taildragger solo in conditions that you know you can't handle. It you really want to challenge yourself and you're not sure if you can handle the situation solo, make sure to fly dual with an experienced pilot on board to act as "safety pilot". Otherwise, go fly, have fun, and don't be afraid to challenge yourself where it's safe to do so.

Wise advice from warbird1

I just bought an Aeronca Champ and am building taildragger time in it.
It can still humble me at anytime with a gust of wind and a bouncy landing.
Yes learn all those things, but always respect your airplane and your limitations.

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Support Your Local Warbirds! KBO!
The only reasons the airplanes matter is what the veterans did with them... and why.

Fully agreed, and that should go without saying. If my post was interpreted otherwise, I apologize for being unclear. Everybody should always respect the envelope of where they are at the moment, and slowly push it out a bit at a time... (and with a CFI on board for bigger steps) but be working toward the most challenging conditions as an ultimate goal.

Hello David,

It appears as though insurance in Canada is quite different from the US. We Canadians qualify for insurance with 0 hours taildragger time. Also, Transport Canada doesn't have a tail dragger endorsement. My insurance at 0 flying hours was about $650.00 for the year.

I would suggest to you what I did. Buy a homebuilt category taildragger, and wear out the runway with circuits. There are very few taildragger CFI's around, so if you can't find one, ask one of the guys at your museum & they will help you somehow (training or phone # for CFI).

Ensure you have and AME look at the homebuilt for a preinspection as the quality of airplanes vary with personalities.

I trained and built hours on a Homebuilt Fleet Canuck and it really prepared me for the Harvard.

Drew

If I had a small lump to throw at it, I think I'd be looking for something like a Preceptor Pup.

Ryan

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Aerial Photographer with Red Wing Aerial Photography currently based at KRBD and tailwheel CFI.
Websites: Texas Tailwheel Flight Training, DoolittleRaid.com and Lbirds.com.

The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but safety is of the LORD. - Prov. 21:31 - Train, Practice, Trust.

All excellent advice, thank you!

I know exactly what you mean with challenging yourself with wind conditions, and landing techniques.

When I was working on my commercial license I took joy in taking on a decent cross wind by doing circuit after circuit in the ol' 172. That being said, I don't think it's ever smart to test how accurate the POH cross wind limitations are for your airplane. Of course, with practice and currency, you can move towards them, and in time you'll get closer and closer while being entirely safe and not at all reckless.

There's a great "old school" tailwheel/formation/aerobatics instructor out of Pitt Meadows named Bob Gilmour. I've done about 8 hours in his Canuck and have had a blast. That was about 4 years ago, and I think I'll get back into it. Maybe even buy a share into his airplane. He rents for a good price from what I can remember, and since it's slow time building is that much easier.

Then there's the RAA Turbi at Delta 'Heritage' Air Park, which I could get checked out solo on sooner, and I think it's very close in price too.

Cheers and thanks again,

David McIntosh

That Canuck connection sounds perfect.

Failing that, wander the little airports looking for a 1945-1949 era taildragger that you can buy into. Talk to people. Don't give up.

A C-65 only burns 3 imp gals an hour. You can pile a lot of time up in a hurry if you want, cheaply. And it's good time.

Then, as was said, try to find a skydive/glider-tow/banner-tow operation where you can build up more time commercially.

Flying a 172 is useless when it comes to antique/vintage aircraft. It de-trains your feet. A net negative, IMHO.

Keep trying. Don't give up.

Dave

I'm in the same kind of situation. Tailwheels are hard to find in my area, and tailwheel-qualified CFI's are more rare.

Right now, I'm working on my multi-engine rating simply because it's easier to find an airplane and an instructor. I stopped renting Cessna "spam-cans" because the time didn't add up to anything worthwhile. Ideally, a multi-engine tailwheel seaplane would be the ultimate way to log flight time - every minute would really count for something (on land or on the water...) Still, then there's the question of radial engines versus turbine time. Think G-21A versus G-21G. Yeah, I know; I'm a dreamer. Don't you have to be to be here in the first place? In any case, the available options there are SO limited...

And before I can go looking for something to buy to start building time now, what are you supposed to do about insurance until you get the magic 250 hrs? Do without it? That's not really an option if I have to finance the purchase, is it?

I'm not sure but I think that the 250 hrs is more for if you're flying it commercially. I'd think you could get insurance for your privately owned taildragger at a bit lower hours number. I've been flying them for a while and am still not over 100 hrs. Probably closer to 75 or so at this point. I could rack up a ton more very quickly if I had the time incentive and money available (I could get it done pretty cheaply down here).

Ryan

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Aerial Photographer with Red Wing Aerial Photography currently based at KRBD and tailwheel CFI.
Websites: Texas Tailwheel Flight Training, DoolittleRaid.com and Lbirds.com.

The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but safety is of the LORD. - Prov. 21:31 - Train, Practice, Trust.

A friend and fellow member of the Bayport Aerodrome Society here on Long Island, bought into a share of a J-3 Cub. He has his Private and owns a C-150 which he got his license in. I know for a fact that his insurance co. would not let him SOLO the cub until he racked up 25 hours with an instructor. I am not sure of his total time but I am pretty sure it is around 100 hours. He says it got expensive building that 25 hours as you guys say it is hard to find a tailwheel CFI and they can charge whatever they like. (I think he said $50/hour). Plus his insurance co insisted that it was a CFI, qualified in the Cub. So no grabbing a newbie C-150 cfi looking to make a few bucks, and no flying with an old timer Cub pilot who's just happy to get up for free but not a CFI.

As for me tailwheel and classic flying is my goal. I actively instruct part time and our club also has 2 O-1 Birdog's and gliders. I have a standing offer for a PT job towing as long as I get my TW endorsement in a Birdog. No Citabria. Plus I was told that would get me 10 hours at least in the O-1 and that would cover the Commercial insurance requirement. I figure I will have to lay out at least $2700-3000 for the Birdog training. I am patiently waiting for the stock market to go up!

Peter B.