Warbird Information Exchange

I have been reading this forum for a while now. And it is obvious to me, that there is a lot of knowledgeable people around. So, I thought I'd ask these questions here

In a couple of books ('A lonely kind of war' and 'Flying Black Ponies') both authors describes how they rolled inverted and acquired the target looking 'up' through the canopy and then 'walked the nose down through the horizon' (I think the wording was something like that) until the pipper was on target. (Both were using rockets - WP and/or Zunies - or were using guns. No free fall, 'dumb', bombs)

The authors did not write why. Just wrote, that they did so. But, why not 'just' roll in? Was it a faster way to get into the 'no pressure on the controls' state?

Is/was this technique used by other aircraft types? (I wonder if any unguided air-to-ground rockets still are in any one's arsenals?)

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Apaches tend to use a few

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Don't touch my junk!!

Ok, sorry. Got me there I was in 'fixed wing mode' when I wrote the post.

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Laughter is the closest distance between two people. (Victor Borge) - To err is human, to forgive, divine (Alexander Pope)

My books: https://www.goodreads.com/user/show/14115381-jesper-jorgensen

OV-10 Bronco is fixed wing... Or did I miss a joke? Anyway, a couple more good book by bronco drivers are:

"DaNang Diary"(St. Martin's Copyright 1990,2002, ISBN 0-312-98493-6), by Col. Tom Yarborough, USAF, who was a FAC;

and also
"Cleared Hot" (St. Martins, Copyright 1992, ISBN 0-312-92941-2) by Col. Bob Stoffey, USMC, who started out as a rotor head, and went over to Broncos on his second tour

Maybe one of them could answer your question!

I think it was just the ease of being able to look directly at the target, upside down, and pulling onto it- You can't see under the nose easily, and you need to keep the target in sight... Makes sense to me.

Robbie

like Robbie said, the sight picture is better plus positive G's are easier to deal with.

That would be my guess.

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Robbie the question was.........

Yes lots of a/c use them inc Apaches

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I doing some research on A-37's in Vietnam service, a few veterans said their bombing techniques were to drop bombs from looping maneuvers. They could correct aim points easier on each pass. I thought this was incredulous from a structural standpoint, as well tactical bomb technique.
Just an FYI,
VL

I didn't fly them but I'll ask about this on the OV-10 email lists... but my suspicion is that such a technique not only enhanced pilot comfort, but it also minimized the exposure time and side profile to intense ground fire (the FAC was the highest value target in the sky). The Bronco is an incredibly strong aircraft, designed for constant maneuvering, and pulling high g was very much just part of the normal routine.

There's a story, I believe it was in "A Lonely Kind of War" about how the OV-10's ability to shoot rockets from a near-vertical approach ensured that a few degree's error would still land the rocket right on the target, while the helicopters that had to use a much shallower dive angle couldn't be nearly as precise as a degree or two off makes a much bigger error when the angle is shallow. In the story, the author described how they'd constantly sucker young army pilots into impromptu rocket-shooting contests that the Bronco would invariably win, and thus keep the OV squadron supplied with beer.

Here's another interesting, slightly-related note... standard procedure in a Bronco to defeat a SAM is to keep the missile centered in the very top of the overhead window... this ensured the missile had to do the most work to try to follow the turn, as well as shielding the exhausts from the missile's sensor as they'd be hidden behind the wing.

From an engineering point of view an aircraft is always stronger in a positive G scenario. In the case of an A-1 or an A-37 where the wings had sometimes enormous loads it would make sense to go inverted before diving. In the case of a FAC pilot the idea of presenting as little of yourself to the enemy as you mark the target or look for BDA. Rolling inverted always allows you to see your target early and add in corrections early to ensure that you got your ordinance correctly on target.

Mark

Several of the Bronco guys have described that method to me in a similar manner during FAC Assn functions. Have I seen it myself....no. The O-2 drivers also had a similar method but they didn't seem to go inverted, more like a funny hammerhead kinda wifferdill deal. I imagine it looked like an elongated cursive lower case e. <hey bear with me and my impressions.... > Not sure what the O-1 guys might have done???

Talking to a Vietnam-era F-4 driver (who taught a bunch of us formation flying), the technique seems to have been to fly very low to avoid detection. At an IP, pop up and roll inverted; at the peak acquire the target. Then roll upright and drop the bombs.

The technique was intended to expose you for no more than 10 seconds. Plus, I was told, the speed, distance of the IP from the target, angle of climb, alt you reach etc all is pre-calculated to drop the bomb right on the bull's eye with only the wind factor to contend with.

In fact now that we've finished the formation part of his course, he was actually going to teach us to do the pop-up maneuver with certain safety factors built in - like a 1500 foot floor.

The formation course was huge fun. It was based on the T-34 form syllabus, and done with Super Decathlons:

1) Hand signals

2) formation takeoffs,

3) form flight out to the practice area, practicing cross-unders and tactical turns on the way

4) Lazy eight and chandelles in formation

5) Break outs and rejoins

6) Fighting Wing

7) Capped off with a formation barrel roll

Then we switched leads and did from #3 (crossunders, tac turns) through #7 again.

For landings we did overhead breaks, fan breaks, formation low level approaches.

One IP left the program so the Low Level Tactical portion of his course is on hold for now.

I recall A-6 Intruder pilots used this technique as well. They told us it was to minimize time and altitude in the pop-up...can't see over the nose so roll inverted, acquire the target, and do a coordinated roll around a point, then release and scram low-level. I saw it demonstrated at NAS Oceana in the late '70's during the A-6 part of the airshow. The announcer (an A-6 zoomie) kept telling the crowd...watch the treeline...watch the treeline...and sure enough, an Intruder popped up rolling inverted, pulled toward the crowd, rolled upright, then banked hard left right over the runway after the simulated "drop". You didn't even hear him coming until he visibly showed over the trees, then the whole thing was over in a few seconds. It was an amazing thing to see, and a really excellent view of the underside of the Intruder as it banked away from the crowd at very low level...and man what a noise all at once--really cool!

I spent some time, as a Marine in the mid-to-late '70's, watch OV-10s do their thing.

OV-10 drivers are approximately as crazy as A-10 drivers at low level, in approximately the same ways.

The maneuver I most associate with them--they did it all the time--was an extreme sort of lazy 8. Nothing lazy about these eights. They'd be inverted at the top, but not all the way upside down--about three-quarters of the way over, pulling around and down for the next pass. They'd do half a dozen passes at a time. It looked like a whole lot of fun to me.

Anyhow, maybe that's what your source is talking about.

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I've ridden through a pop-up manuver at an IP in an OA-37

Looking 'up' through the canopy at the ground while finding the target is amazingly 'natural'.

We went from a tight low-level (500' +- AGL) 360 turn, pulled up into a half loop, then rolled over into a dive on the target - the target 'moves' from overhead to directly in front of you.

I'm not a pilot, but I did watch those things "from the other end" back in my younger days. What I remember is a racetrack pattern flown by the bombers, and the OV-10 doing what was necessary to spot the target in coordination with a ground observer. The OV-10 operated in a steeply banked high-G turn for spotting would sometimes use rockets to mark the target. The strike aircraft (F-100, AT-37, F-5, SPAD) came down at about 45 degrees, dropped two bombs, and got back into the pattern. The F-100 was the most common in III Corp before the SVNAF tried to take over from late 1969 with the AT-37's and F-5's. The OV-10 was fun to watch as it was so manoeverable and seemed to have plenty of power. Sometimes we'd get a mini-airshow when they came in to land at Quan Loi. One guy came down the runway below the tree tops (he left a dust trail), then pulled straight up and did a beautiful hammerhead turn before landing. The AH-1 Cobra was about the only other aircraft that could match it. The LOH-6 was pretty "split-arse" but didn't seem to have enough power.