Warbird Information Exchange

How effective was the P-38 against the Me109 & FW190?
I've read contradictory accounts as to it's capabilities vs. lighter a/c.
I guess what I'm asking is: given equal pilot skills, who had the advantage?
I'm sure there are countless "in this or that situation" answers. Let's just say at various altitudes.

Mudge the curious

ps...no cracks about George Washington.

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Land of the free because of the brave

From 1942 trail of captured AC, P-38F Vs the 190A3
Speed
at 2000 ft, FW 15 mph faster than 38F, at 8000 FW still 15mph faster, at 15,000 FW 5-8mpg faster, at 23,000 38 is 6-8mph faster
Climb
The FW out climbs the 38 up to 15,000', at 20,000 and above, the 38 wins
Dive
FW initially outdives the 38, in prolonged dives, the 38 gradually catches up if given time.
Maneuverability
FW superior to 38 particularly in role rate, at lower speed, 38 can out turn the FW, FW out accelerated, responded quicker to controls

You hit the key phrase with "given equal skills" In these comparisons it's this single factor that is the intangible that without proper insertion, eludes a definitive answer.
Actually, in defining pilot skills, one would have to further sub divide this factor down another notch to reflect any difference in skill between the two cockpits as that related to the specific aircraft being flown by each.
It's a tough call to make even with this elusive data in tow as one then has to consider the exact configuration of each aircraft as to gross weight (fuel load) and where in each aircraft's envelope the comparison is to be made.
The way we compare dissimilar aircraft in the US is to put each aircraft at 50% fuel and compare each against the other over an EM diagram. This gives you a rough idea of what to expect performance wise as one views the overlay, but that all important "difference between the cockpits" can't be computed and remains the deciding factor.
The simple truth is that you will almost never have equality between the cockpits which reduces all comparison of dissimilar fighters to an "opinion only" status.
Dudley Henriques

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Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship

One of my favorite 38 combat reports from the 370th FG history by Jay Jones


Lt. Royal Madden, July 31, 1944

“Approximately 15 Me 109s came down on Blue Flight and we broke left. I then made a vertical right turn and observed Blue Two below and close and Blue Four was ahead and slightly above me. I glanced behind me and saw four Me 109s closing on my tail fast and within range so I broke left and down in a Split S. I used flaps to get out and pulled up and to the left. I then noticed a single Me 109 on my tail and hit the deck in a sharp spiral.

We seemed to be the only two planes around so we proceeded to mix it up in a good old-fashioned dogfight at about 1000 feet. This boy was good and he had me plenty worried as he sat on my tail for about five minutes, but I managed to keep him from getting any deflection. I was using maneuvering flaps often and finally got inside of him. I gave him a short burst at 60 degrees, but saw I was slightly short so I took about 2 radii lead at about 150 yards and gave him a good long burst. There were strikes on the cockpit and all over the ship and the canopy came off. He rolled over on his back and seemed out of control so I closed in and was about to give him a burst at 0 deflection when he bailed out at 800 feet.

Having lost the squadron I hit the deck for home. Upon landing I learned that my two 500 pound bombs had not released when I had tried to jettison them upon being jumped. As a result I carried them throughout the fight.”

[quote="Mudge"]How effective was the P-38 against the Me109 & FW190?
I've read contradictory accounts as to it's capabilities vs. lighter a/c.
I guess what I'm asking is: given equal pilot skills, who had the advantage?
quote]

Mudge - the ultimate determinant is how well the 38 performed against them. There is no way to assess tactical scenarios other than presumed engagement above 20,000 feet for most 8th AF encounters, nor is there a way to assess pilot skill.

Net - in air to air combat my research shows the air to air ratio of the P-38 was about 2.6, the P-47 was around 7.6 and the P-51 was about 10.5.

The overall P-38 statistics were skewed (up) by the superb performance of the 479th FG which only flew the P-38J-25 and above with same engines and manuevering flap and dive brakes as the P-38L. As near as I can tell they were running ~ 14 to 1 - the highest in the ETO with their P-38s. They had several advantages over the eralier 20th, 55th and 364th FG - namely the pilots they faced in May-Sept 1944 were less skilled on average, their 38's were the final versions with all final features including boosted ailerons, dive brakes and the more powerful Allisons plus the Intercooler problems were solved.

The P-38J w/o dive brakes and boosted controls had closer to a 1.5 to 1 ratio in the 8th AF.

Why? Speculation says the reasons for less success are 1.) much easier to spot (and avoid or sneak up on) than a 47 or 51, 2.) intercooler problems with Allisons in very cold air over Europe in Fall 43 through Winter and Spring 44 blew up a lot of engines, lack of dive brakes in that same period gave the 109s and 190s time to split S and accelerate away in a dive while the 38 pilot was fighting near immediate compressibility, and last - lack of boosted ailerons - reducing roll rates to initiate really good turn capabilities.

Mike Williams site WWII Aircraft Performance has a lot of really good flight test comparisons against other Allied aircraft to give a sense of performance vs 109 and 190.

Thanks troops. I appreciate all the info.

Mudge the enlightened

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Land of the free because of the brave

In fairness, though, weren't there some changes in doctrine as to how the fighters were being used during that time period? How did the P-38s stack up in North Africa and Italy?

Ryan

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Aerial Photographer with Red Wing Aerial Photography currently based at KRBD and tailwheel CFI.
Websites: Texas Tailwheel Flight Training, DoolittleRaid.com and Lbirds.com.

The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but safety is of the LORD. - Prov. 21:31 - Train, Practice, Trust.

Ryan - yes.

Having said that, the P-38s in the Med flew far more sorties at medium and medium high levels for escort and far more sorties in fighter bomber role than 8th AF.

The advantages that the late model P-38F/J had materialized better relative to 109s where compressibility dives were harder to get into, where the sustained turn capability, climb and acceleration met or exceeded the 109G and, except for roll and level speed, in general were equal or better than Fw 190 in those same areas.

It was better match in MTO than ETO for the same dash number P-38s.