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Classic Wings Magazine WWII Naval Aviation Research Pacific Luftwaffe Resource Center
When Hollywood Ruled The Skies - Volumes 1 through 4 by Bruce Oriss


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aseanaero
 Post subject: Jet Aces ?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:57 am 
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Were there any US jet aces from the Gulf War or Desert Storm ?

Have a look at this from Wikipedia for the Korean War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Korean_War_air_aces

Name Country Service Claimed kills
Nikolay Sutyagin Soviet Union VVS 21
Yevgeny Pepelyaev Soviet Union VVS 20
Capt. Joseph C. McConnell United States Air Force 16
Major James Jabara United States Air Force 15
Capt. Manuel J. "Pete" Fernandez United States Air Force 14 + 1 shared
Maj. George A. Davis United States Air Force 14
Col. Royal N. Baker United States Air Force 13
Lev Shchukin Soviet Union VVS 13
Sergei Kramarenko Soviet Union VVS 13
Capt. Harold E. Fischer United States Air Force 10
Col. James K. Johnson United States Air Force 10
Capt. Lonnie R. Moore United States Air Force 10
Capt. Ralph Parr United States Air Force 10
Col. Vermont Garrison United States Air Force 10
Col. James P. Hagerstrom United States Air Force 8 + 1 shared
Baotong Zhao China PVA 7
Maj. James H. Kasler United States Air Force 6[1]
Col. John F. Bolt United States USMC 6
Yudi Liu China PVA 6
Daoping Jiang China PVA 5
Decai Han China PVA 5
Col. Ralph Gibson United States Air Force 5[2]
Col. Harrison R. Thyng United States Air Force 5
Guy Pierre Bordelon Jr United States US Navy 5[3]
Iven C. Kincheloe Jr. United States Air Force ~5[4]

Then Vietnam aces

Name Country Service Victories
Nguyễn Vãn Cốc North Vietnam Air Force 9
Mai Vãn Cýờng North Vietnam Air Force 8
Nguyễn Hồng Nhị North Vietnam Air Force 8
Phạm Thanh Ngân North Vietnam Air Force 8
Ðặng Ngọc Ngự North Vietnam Air Force 7
Nguyễn Vãn Bảy North Vietnam Air Force 7
Lê Hải North Vietnam Air Force 6
Lê Thanh Ðạo North Vietnam Air Force 6
Lýu Huy Chao North Vietnam Air Force 6
Nguyễn Ðãng Kỉnh North Vietnam Air Force 6
Nguyễn Ðức Soát North Vietnam Air Force 6
Nguyễn Ngọc Ðộ North Vietnam Air Force 6
Nguyễn Nhật Chiêu North Vietnam Air Force 6
Nguyễn Tiến Sâm North Vietnam Air Force 6
Vadim Petrovich Shchbakov Soviet Union PVO Strany1 6[1]
Vũ Ngọc Ðỉnh North Vietnam Air Force 6
Nguyễn Vãn Nghĩa North Vietnam Air Force 5
Capt. Charles B. "Chuck" DeBellevue United States Air Force 6
LT Randall "Duke" Cunningham United States Navy2 5
LTJG William P. Driscoll United States Navy 5
Capt. Steve Ritchie United States Air Force2 5
Capt. Jeff Feinstein United States Air Force 5

And for additional data the Arab-Israeli War

Name Country Service Victories
Col. (Ret.) Giora Epstein Israel Israeli Air Force 17 (top scoring jet ace)[1]
Yiftah Spector Israel Israeli Air Force 15 [2]
Amir Nahumi Israel Israeli Air Force 15 [3]
Abraham Shalmon Israel Israeli Air Force 14.5[4]
Asher Snir Israel Israeli Air Force 13.5[5]
Israel Baharav Israel Israeli Air Force 12
Ya'akov Richter Israel Israeli Air Force 11.5
Dror Harish Israel Israeli Air Force 11
Oded Marom Israel Israeli Air Force 11
Shlomo Levi Israel Israeli Air Force 10


Now compare this with the top 10 aces of WW2

Name Country Service Victories
Hartmann, Erich "Bubi"Erich "Bubi" Hartmann Germany Luftwaffe 352
Barkhorn, GerhardGerhard Barkhorn Germany Luftwaffe 301
Rall, GüntherGünther Rall Germany Luftwaffe 275
Kittel, OttoOtto Kittel Germany Luftwaffe 267
Nowotny, Walter "Nowi"Walter "Nowi" Nowotny Germany Luftwaffe 258
Batz, WilhelmWilhelm Batz Germany Luftwaffe 237
Rudorffer, ErichErich Rudorffer Germany Luftwaffe 222 (12 Me-262)
Bär, HeinzHeinz Bär Germany Luftwaffe 220 (16 Me-262)
Graf, HermannHermann Graf Germany Luftwaffe 212
Ehrler, HeinrichHeinrich Ehrler Germany Luftwaffe 208 (8 Me-262)

Anyone else see a trend here ?

Ok , there's not as much to shoot at since WW2 but it seems that jets are a lot harder to kill than WW2 fighters.

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jwc50
 Post subject: Re: Jet Aces ?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:30 am 
aseanaero wrote:
Were there any US jet aces from the Gulf War or Desert Storm ?


No, I believe there was an Air Force F-15C pilot who shot down 3 enemy aircraft.

I believe the trend in numbers from WWII thru the prsent is just a factor of the sheer scope and numbers of aircraft involved and the vastly recuced opportunity for enaging other aircraft in combat.
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jet1
 Post subject: your info is wrong....
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:46 am 
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Bob Love Korea 7.5 kills
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Saville
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:51 am 
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Didn't Frederick Blesse get 10 in Korea?
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TAdan
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:28 am 
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Does shooting down a UAV count?

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aseanaero
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:43 pm 
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These are wikipedia numbers so they aren't necessarily correct but easily accessible.

UAVs ? I dont know , anyone ? V-1s didn't count towards as ace score I don't think but they were counted as a further statistic that I can recall reading.

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Randy Haskin
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Rico Rodriguez is the closest, with 3 MiG victories.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200903/air-force
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Jack Cook
 Post subject: ???
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:56 pm 
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What was the AF F-16 pilot with 3 kills over Kosovo,, Bob Wright?

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John Dupre
 Post subject: Re: Jet Aces ?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:52 pm 
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[quote="aseanaero"]Were there any US jet aces from the Gulf War or Desert Storm ?

Highest scorer in DS was 3. Rico Rogriguez who retired recently as the highest scoring pilot in service had two in DS and one over Kosovo or someplace very near there.

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John Dupre
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:55 pm 
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Capt. Charles B. "Chuck" DeBellevue United States Air Force 6
LT Randall "Duke" Cunningham United States Navy 5
LTJG William P. Driscoll United States Navy 5
Capt. Steve Ritchie United States Air Force 5
Capt. Jeff Feinstein United States Air Force 5

There are 26 victories credited in this list. How many aircraft were actually destroyed by these men?

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Jack Cook
 Post subject: ????
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:57 pm 
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Under Operation Deny Flight, instituted on April 12, 1993, Serbian aircraft were forbidden to fly over Bosnian territory. On February 18, 1994, two USAF F-16Cs from the 86th Tactical Fighter Wing/526th Tactical Fighter Squadron shot down four Serbian Soko G-4 Super Galebs over Bosnia-Herzegovina. This was the first offensive action ever performed by NATO warplanes. Six Galebs had been spotted by an E-3 Sentry while bombing targets in the town of Bugojno. They were warned twice to land or leave the UN no-fly zone, but both warnings were ignored. Two USAF F-16s were then vectored in to intercept the Galebs. Two more warnings were given, and the F-16Cs were given clearance to fire. F-16C 89-2137 flown by Capt. Robert Wright fired a single AIM-120 AMRAAM which dispatched the lead Galeb, and then fired two Sidewinders which destroyed two more Galebs. The second F-16C flown by Capt. Scott O'Grady fired a Sidewinder at the fourth aircraft, but this missile missed. A second flight of F-16Cs was vectored in by the AWACS, and the lead aircraft from this flight (89-2009) , destroyed a fourth Galeb. The remaining two Galebs managed to escape Bosnian airspace via Croatia.


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Jack Cook
 Post subject: ????
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:59 pm 
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Quote:
Capt. Charles B. "Chuck" DeBellevue United States Air Force 6
LT Randall "Duke" Cunningham United States Navy 5
LTJG William P. Driscoll United States Navy 5
Capt. Steve Ritchie United States Air Force 5
Capt. Jeff Feinstein United States Air Force 5

DeBellevue, Driscoll & Feinstein's kills mirror those of their pilots so they can be removed has you can't count 1 plane twice.

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Stoney
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:34 pm 
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As a person that crewed for Bob Love at Reno, his score was 6 confirmed and one he did not get credit for. His wingman Cliff Jolly got 7, Cliff was Bob's best man at his wedding and they both were AG pilots out of VanNuys. Bob told me he wrote orders to Korea for them both and they flew 57 missions and came home. Bob was a RCAF, USAAF, USAF, and AG pilot.

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aseanaero
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:03 am 
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Quote:
Rico Rodriguez is the closest, with 3 MiG victories.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200903/air-force


Thanks for the link Randy , very interesting and explains a lot of the initial question that I asked.

The F-15 and similar 4th generation fighter aircraft garaunteed air superiority for so long that few were game to challenge it resulting in a lot fewer aircraft to target.

So what I think we are seeing here in these figures is the gradual technology gap between opposing forces , in WW2 and Korea the technologies were pretty evenly matched , in Vietnam it moved a bit further , in the 70's with the F-15 it was a quantum leap resulting in much less engagements and most of those with BVR missiles.

The article also said if the F-15s weren't totally replaced by F-22s we could see a return back to the days of fighter aces as the opposing technology slowly catches up.

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John Dupre
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:32 am 
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"So what I think we are seeing here in these figures is the gradual technology gap between opposing forces , in WW2 and Korea the technologies were pretty evenly matched , in Vietnam it moved a bit further , in the 70's with the F-15 it was a quantum leap resulting in much less engagements and most of those with BVR missiles. "

It would seem to me that the technology gap only began to increase by the end of the Vietnam war. For much of that war the technologies were pretty evenly matched since most of the US advanced technology didn't work well in that tactical environment. Evenly matched aircraft meant that tactics and pilot skill were the determining factor in air combat encounters. The Vietnamese had the better of the US for much of the war in air combat Though I don't believe any communist generated list of aces can be taken at face value the Vietnamese clearly had more aces than we did.

When you consider the Israelis were using and facing many of the same aircraft but with a different tactical mind set they had a far better kill ratio and number of aces than the US did.

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