Warbird Museum and FBO

mustangdriver · **Posted:** Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:42 pm

A friend of mine and I have had along time dream of opening our own museum and a Warbird friendly FBO. We are very close to acquiring this dream, and I wondered what those of you on here would think. We are looking into acquiring a facility on Indianapolis International Airport that is vacant and rather large, and has public access. What we intend on doing is getting a few aircraft that are privately owned but are seeking shelter to start off with. I know there are some warbird owners that have less than ideal conditions to work on the aircraft. One section of the building is going to be the flyable aircraft, and the other will be static aircraft. We want to look into building a relationship with some of the groups that tour, and let them use our ramp space and facilities when they are here. Same goes for a transient just passing through. Aircraft that are flyers that are indoors for the winter would atleast be on display for people to see. And in the summer months, people could come out and see and hear these things running. We are also looking into acquiring several static aircraft from the U.S. Government as well. The facility would be dedicated to old aircraft, not just warbirds, but warbirds would play a lead role. But while some come out to see the warbirds, they can stop and learn about a J-3 or a T Craft. We will offer services such as fuel arrangements, aircraft cleaning, routine repair work, and services and facilities for the pilots, and crews. So what are some thougts? How can we make this better, any one out there interested, what would you like to see?

John Dupre · **Posted:** Sat Feb 14, 2009 6:17 pm

It sounds like a really good idea. I know a little about FBOs and I think you have to ask yourself what will be your profit centers. In my experience most FBOs have to do a lot of different things well in order to survive. Can you sell fuel to transient business jets with the same service you will give to warbirds. A Hawker fueling is going to bring in a lot more than a T-6 or Mustang. Will your maintenance shop specialize in Warbirds or do a little of everything? What about best laid plans going astray. Let's say in a few years your shop is known for working on some non warbird type and starts getting a lot of that business while the museum is not bringing in that much........

jet1 · **Posted:** Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:09 pm

John Dupre wrote:

It sounds like a really good idea. I know a little about FBOs and I think you have to ask yourself what will be your profit centers. In my experience most FBOs have to do a lot of different things well in order to survive. Can you sell fuel to transient business jets with the same service you will give to warbirds. A Hawker fueling is going to bring in a lot more than a T-6 or Mustang. Will your maintenance shop specialize in Warbirds or do a little of everything? What about best laid plans going astray. Let's say in a few years your shop is known for working on some non warbird type and starts getting a lot of that business while the museum is not bringing in that much........

start with 8 million then open an FBO!

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:38 pm

Chris,

First, I think it's an interesting idea. Second, PLEASE try and stay out of debt doing it. Third, trying to make it an FBO AND trying to have a museum, while a very interesting idea, might make SOME of the more profitable customers less likely to stop. I'm pretty sure at the FBO where I work, we don't really make that much of a profit off of a Cessna 152 getting 15 gallons of gas. The bigger jets and turboprops are MUCH more worth the time of the line guys and some of them are more interested in their privacy - which might not do as well with a public museum. I have some other thoughts, but they might not be that relevant. I'll wait and see what else gets written first.

Ryan

Tim Savage · **Joined:** Mon May 03, 2004 8:26 pm **Posts:** 630

I don't get into IND that often, but it is a moderately busy air carrier airport. It is unlikely to be someplace that folks just stop for the proverbial $100 hamburger. We always used Signature when we went in there in the Baron, C-45 or whatever. They charge a pretty healthy ramp fee and pretty high fuel prices. Gas at Signature is currenty $2.50 moe than airports only 60-100 miles around, and over $1.50 more than MQJ just ten miles away. I am not sure how much of the expensive fuel ramp fee was imposed/taxed by the airport authority and how much of it was just because Signature in general is ridiculously. Signature just built a snazzy new FBO building, obviously intending to capitalize on the bizjet and turbo prop traffic.

Given the air carrier nature of the airport, you aren't going to be able to have folks roam at will around on the ramp or hangars of your facility. Last time I was at IND you even had to have an escort to your own aircraft. Not sure if that has changed, but I can't imagine it has changed for the better.

I think the only way to turn a profit at that location would be to have a fuel concession, and I don't know if one would even be available to you. As far as maintenance, etc. I am guessing the airport authority's requirements for insurance,etc. would make it prohibitively expensive for you to operate for general aviation or warbirds. Certainly for warbirds, where the hourly rate is generally lower than general aviation.

Trey Carroll could tell you a lot more about the current status of the FBOs at IND, as he spends a lot more time around there. I don't know what FBO facility on the airport is empty, but you have to wonder, if they couldn't make it servicing business travelers in bigger aircraft, how would one support it with the smaller fuel purchases etc, as Ryan mentioned above.

Not to rain on your parade, but I think this would be a very difficult operation to cash flow. Aviation in general, even the biz jet game, is going to be difficult for the next few years, I am guessing.

As an aside, check our carefully the requirements to get aircraft from the NMUSAF etc. They have a pretty comprehensive document that details their expectations, and they aren't easy to comply with. I did some research on the subject recently and was told point blank that they won't support a new museum. They want established entities. I imagine this is to prevent a lot of the problems we have discussed on this very site.

Tinker51 · **Joined:** Sun Feb 11, 2007 2:08 am **Posts:** 164

The FBO business is tough. It is possible to make money at the game but you must be very careful. At KIND the two FBO's are large companies with deep pockets. Many large airports require a landing fee. I don't recall if KIND does but I doubt many warbird operators would be willing to pay to land if they do. As others have stated, pumping 50 gallons into a T-6 is not nearly as profitable as 500 gallons into a jet. If you can only plan on a certain number of transactions in a day you might as well shoot for the profitable ones.

Warbirds beating up the sky and large aircraft traffic don't mix well. I wonder how accommodating the KIND tower would be to low passes and overheads and could they even be seen from your ramp? Doesn't do much good to have a "fly day" if nobody on the museum grounds can see the display.

With that being said, I like the idea but there are twelve million questions that need answering first.

Trey Carroll · **Posted:** Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:16 am

You've sorta allready been beat to the idea. There's a FBO being built on the North side, just off to the side of 23R. Not exactly sure on where everythings stands as of now, but that was the original idea. They're trying to get Tom Wood's collection moved over there. Currently Tom keeps his aircraft at Signature, who have overly high gas prices and parking fees to beat the band. There never seems to be many GA or bizjets going in and out of Indy. The bizjets get reserved for Mount Comfort, and I'd say Eagle Creek and Metro on the North side of Indy get all of the GA flying.

And let's not get me started on the Indy controllers. I was flying the Wood's T-6 back one Sunday evening with dad, and the sky had about 2 other airplanes and a cloud in it, and they couldn't even handle the intense load of a T-6, Airbus, Lear, and a cloud. Low passes, Negative Ghostrider. These aren't the most reputable folks around. Maybe it was rookie day at the tower though...

The idea has allready been done at KLEX too...
http://www.air-51.com/

tc

EDowning · **Posted:** Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:23 pm

As a rule, I avoid airports like IND like the plague. Wouldn't have any interest in this.

Forgotten Field · **Posted:** Mon Feb 16, 2009 1:13 am

You really should do it. Sink a few hundred thousand into it, and let us know how it is going in a few years...

mustangdriver · **Posted:** Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:32 am

Thanks for the feedback. We are still deciding on the location and the style of business. Really we just want to open the museum, and were using the FBO as a means to maybe make so money at the same time to get it going. We would prefer to have a museum that hosts aircraft passing through. Now as far as the airport goes. We have a second airport that we are considering in Mt. Comfort. We want to do something never before done. We were considering all options, but we re pretty close to a dream that we have had along time. As far as getting some military statics, I have already talked to some about it, that would play a key part in getting a few aircraft. We want a warbird friendly facility, that is also a destination.

Holedigger · **Posted:** Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:58 am

About all I know about FBO's is what I've seen on our local government channel when they were looking at "New" bids for our little airport. After fighting off closing the field completely, they got Federal money for new construction instead and then started "shopping" for a NEW FBO, so the one that had been there for years had to scramble to prove his worth to the city officials who really had some bonehead ideas about airports in general.

A must would be to find out what entities you have to bow to at the field and what might smack you in the face just as you are making a go of it! State, Local, Federal......lots of rules, regulations, red-tape and bureaucracy to contend with. Study carefully before penny one goes into it!

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:13 am

mustangdriver wrote:

Thanks for the feedback. We are still deciding on the location and the style of business. Really we just want to open the museum, and were using the FBO as a means to maybe make so money at the same time to get it going. We would prefer to have a museum that hosts aircraft passing through. Now as far as the airport goes. We have a second airport that we are considering in Mt. Comfort. We want to do something never before done. We were considering all options, but we re pretty close to a dream that we have had along time. As far as getting some military statics, I have already talked to some about it, that would play a key part in getting a few aircraft. We want a warbird friendly facility, that is also a destination.

I would think that you should check around for groups that *might* have a similar set up. You might check with someone from a smaller airport like the Burnet, TX Highland Lakes Squadron where the CAF squadron has a little museum nearby the FBO and get their feedback on the idea.

Ryan

wacoykc · **Posted:** Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:57 am

How are you hoping to fund the museum....through fuel sales/hangar fees/parking fees? In my experience with museums in the past 2 years, money, especially now, is not forthcoming. Obviously a 501c3 is the way to go for a museum, however, people will not flock to donate items until you are well established and go show viability. To specifically cater to warbirds sounds great, but, you will find you need everything that flies to help pay the bills. I would suggest an airport that does not already have several FBO's. Find one with enough suitable runways that is looking for an FBO and has some sort of appeal.

IndyJen · **Posted:** Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:30 pm

Quote:

Thanks for the feedback. We are still deciding on the location and the style of business. Really we just want to open the museum, and were using the FBO as a means to maybe make so money at the same time to get it going. We would prefer to have a museum that hosts aircraft passing through. Now as far as the airport goes. We have a second airport that we are considering in Mt. Comfort. <snip> We want a warbird friendly facility, that is also a destination.

Well, being a warbird that is currently based at Mount Comfort, I'd have to say that MQJ would be a much more viable location for you than IND, certainly.

But there is already an FBO on the field (Indy Aero), and they would certainly not take kindly to competition right in their face like that. They, and the business-jet people Vitesse next door to them, have the only hangars on the field that can accommodate bomber-sized wingspans, so you'd have build new. The ramp where you'd have to build--the only available space--happens to be our (that is, Hot Stuff's) ramp.

Which, sure, come on down and adopt us--lord knows we'd love to be able to pull indoors for maintenance, if someone would make a space for us.

But what I'm trying to put forward is, there could be an awful lot of heartache awaiting you at MQJ, if you went that route, especially as Indy Aero owns the fuel concession, and surely fuel sales is what you're planning to make money from, correct? It would take a lot of doing, to horn in on Indy Aero's action there.

If someone in the AMHF were to win the lottery or some such, we'd certainly build a great big hangar right there at our ramp, and make such a museum as you describe, but I don't think we'd encounter the heartaches you inevitably would, because (a) we wouldn't be entering direct competition with our established FBO, and (b) we already have a cordial relationship with them--they do a lot to support us in little ways, in fact.

MQJ is a satellite field of IND, within the Indianapolis Airport Authority, and it would be only under their say-so that a competing FBO concession would be granted, in any case. Again, not to rain on your parade, but I think there'd be a lot of politicking and presentations done before that would be forthcoming.

You might, however, consider an airport somewhat to the north: Anderson, Indiana, about 40 minutes up I-69 from Indianapolis. They are a controlled field of decent size, but not enormous, and certainly not a terminal in IND's league. Their FBO folded about two years ago, and it's still vacant. So instead of going in and competing with the established business, you'd be filling a void. Instead of having to deal with the inevitable hostility, you might actually encounter some real goodwill, just for showing up. Might be able to get a decent deal on that FBO-sized vacant hangar. Fuel concession oughtn't be a problem.

I might be talking out of my hat, because I'm not in the FBO business, and I don't go to Anderson more than once in a blue moon. But it might be worth investigating.

Please understand, I'm not trying to be a downer for you, nor am I trying to shoo you away. If you came to MQJ, and built a large hangar, I'd be all over you--among other things, trying to get you to adopt ol' Hot Stuff. IndyJen does not enjoy working outside all winter in the bitter cold, getting everything on herself all frozen and frostbitten. I tell you, I'd be kissing your behind till your cheeks were chapped, making friends and wheedling favors, in fact! But I really do think that you'd make more of a splash in Anderson. If I had the money you appear to have, that's where I'd go, truth be told.

Or if not Anderson, perhaps Columbus (BAK) to the south. It's a big field, and maybe has room for two FBOs. An old Air Corps/Air Force field, it would be the very thing for a historical operation. I can't think of an Indianapolis-area field that would fill the bill as well as either of those two.

Best of luck to you, though. And if you do get established in our area, please think kind thoughts about the crew of ol' Hot Stuff, and set aside a corner of that big hangar in the winter for us!

mustangdriver · **Posted:** Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:38 am

Thank you everyone for the great and kind words. Indy jen, we had you guys in mind when talking about the hangar believe it or not. We are not locked into the FBO idea part of it, that was just an idea. We are also not locked into IND just once again a starting point. We have the ability to start this but we want to make sure we do it right. It is our dream, and we don't want to waste it. Jen, you are a downer in no way what so ever. We are going to use your advice, and also explore other options for the business side of it. A warbird restaraunt in this area might be a hit. We are going to explore. Talked this morning about government loaned aircraft, and have paper work on the way.

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