This is the place where the majority of the warbird (aircraft that have survived military service) discussions will take place. Specialized forums may be added in the new future
Sun Mar 18, 2007 10:21 am
Sun Mar 18, 2007 10:34 am
Wow! That is sad. "No easy days."
Sun Mar 18, 2007 10:47 am
tragic, but great sequence of pics. the cutlass was drop dead gorgeous, but extremely unstable to fly / land / take off / or anything, it's service life was most abbreviated because of this!!!
Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:02 am
Is the canopy off from impact, or did the pilot try to eject?
Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:22 am
the cutlass was drop dead gorgeous, but extremely unstable to fly / land / take off / or anything,
Not sure where you got this bit of info
Here's a tidbit from Adm Whitey Fleightner....................
"I was amazed from the beginning at how the Cutlass flew. It had a phenomenal rate of roll. The sensitivity of the 'ailevators' was terrific. At the same time, it was immensely stable. Later, we discovered its post-stall-gyration tendency, which wasn't too nice; but I did a couple stalls with it on the first flight, and it was the most docile airplane I'd ever flown. You could stall it, and it would just sit there and drop off into a gentle 'falling leaf.' It didn't even spin off.
"You really didn't use the rudders much; you mostly flew with the stick. I did five turn rolls, and they averaged out to 527 degrees per second! By the time you yanked full ailevator, you had done a 360. That thing was like steel; you couldn't tear the wings off.
Sun Mar 18, 2007 3:12 pm
he must of had the knack for the type with his aerial combat record, but overall it was not practical or feasible for the majority of navy pilots.
Sun Mar 18, 2007 3:29 pm
Tom,
Kills don't mean anything in relationship to the skill of the pilot. All kills mean is that a guy was able to take advantage of opportunity. Fleightner was a experienced test pilot and that was a very brief synopsis of his report of it's flying charactoristics. It was not unstable has you previously stated. It's major problem was crappy engines. Just like the Demon which many of were put in storage until it got a better engine than the same Westinghouse toaster engine the Cutless had. Imagine Cutless and Demons with J-79s!!!
Sun Mar 18, 2007 7:07 pm
good points, but i was trying to convey his talent behind the stick in general as well as his fighter pilot savvy.
Sun Mar 18, 2007 7:56 pm
Not trying to "armchair quarterback" the incident, but knowing how piss-poor the Gutless's engines were, it seems pretty clear this guy got way behind the power curve coming in for a trap. Those early jets didn't have the instant "spool up" we're used to nowadays, you had to fly well ahead of the jet and anticipate power changes well in advance. The unfortunate LCDR appears to have concentrated too hard on Paddles and not enough on making sure he had enough power. All the more reason you won't hear me bagging on Naval Aviators... it's a tremendously difficult job. One small mistake can easily be your last, as shown here.
Lynn
Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:13 pm
Although those toaster engines sucked. The leading cause of ramp
strikes is 'spotting the deck' which is the biggest no-no in carrier aviation.
Sat Jul 07, 2007 4:26 pm
Just found this on YouTube regarding this accident.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XijP0w25-8g&mode=related&search=
Shay
____________
Semper Fortis
Sat Jul 07, 2007 8:46 pm
You can see the guy shooting the movie footage at the bottom right corner of the still shots. Guy had balls to stand fast and get that footage!
Sat Jul 07, 2007 8:49 pm
The Cutlass wasn't a bad handling aircraft, it was underpowered. The engines had to be brought in and out of burner when the airplane was at high AOA in order to stay on the glideslope. That, and you couldn't see out of it on approach.
A good read about the Cutlass (and many other early jets) is "The Wrong Stuff" by Commander John Moore, USN (Ret).
Tim
Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:08 pm
Rob Mears wrote:You can see the guy shooting the movie footage at the bottom right corner of the still shots. Guy had balls to stand fast and get that footage!

This was posted on the YouTube Comments:
"....Lt Cmdr. Jay Alkire of VF-124 lost his life in this crash. He was stunned and badly injured from the impact, when the aircraft fell off the port side of the USS Hancock and rapidly sank with Alkire still strapped in his ejection seat.
Along with Alkire, two aviation boatswain's mates and one of the photographer's mates recording the accident was also killed by burning jet fuel in the deckside walkway........"
What a way to go.....
Shay
____________
Semper Fortis
Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:51 am
According to the accident report and an email from one of the squadron's pilot, nobody besides Alkire was seriously injured, much less killed. The LSO (also reported on line to be seriously injured) got away clean. All the sailors along the deck edge ducked under the deck and into the passageways.
Alkire made this approach about 1,000 pounds heavier than recommended. He had, however, made one successful landing immediately prior to this one. According to the LSO, he didn't respond to come-on (speed up) signals or the waveoff.
The Cutlass was underpowered as reported above and because of the rapid increase in drag with angle of attack of its wing platform, could not be permitted to get slow on the flat approach still being used with jets on axial decks. When deployed on angle deck carriers, it was fairly well regarded and not nearly as accident-prone. However, by then, its fate and reputation had been determined.
The ejection seat in these mid-fifties aircraft was basically a bailout aid. There was little chance of survivability in an ejection below pattern altitude. The canopy coming off was the result of the ramp strike.
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