English Channel/ North Sea warbirds

[PbyCat-Guy]

Just wondering, if at all, how many warbirds have been recovered from the Channel and North Sea. I bet that there are plenty of B-17s, B-24s, other bombers, some Spitfires Hurricans & other fighters, as well as a good variety of Luftwaffe aircraft.
Would be nice if someone would survey the wrecks of all those -17s, and others. Some of 'em might be salvage worthy for restoration.

[ZRX61]

Owing to the currents in the Channel, any aircraft that crashed there 60 years ago will be somewhere around the mid-Atlantic by now.

[DaveM2]

There is a survey being undertaken by a British outfit off the UK Coast- as to whether it will see anything recovered that remains to be seen.

Dave

[PeterA]

There is a survey being undertaken by a British outfit off the UK Coast- as to whether it will see anything recovered that remains to be seen.
Dave

...remains to be seen...I hope so.

PeterA

[DaveM2]

http://blogs.wessexarch.co.uk/aircraftc ... e-project/

[John Dupre]

Speaking of the North Sea what about aircraft recovered from the Netherlands polders? Those areas of the Netherlands once open to the sea that have been diked and pumped out. In the 1970s I used to see occasional articles showing intact B-17s and B-24s and other damaged aircraft. The articles usually ended by describing the aircraft as being scrapped! Are these recoveries still going on? Is there a more enlightened view about recovery/restoration? How many wrecks might still be discovered?

As for any saltwater wreck recovery has got to be an iffy proposition. Naval aircraft generally had better corrosion protection are and are probably better candidates. Also local salinity and oxygen conditions are a factor. Basically the deeper the better. Still I have read of numerous recoveries of Army aircraft that simply dissolved in the time it took to barge them back to shore. Of course we know a lot more about recoveries now than years ago.

[Pat Carry]

In one of my books about the B-17 there is a photo of a totally intact B-17 sitting in one of the ploders after it was drained. There was very little visual damage because it made a landing on its gear. It was later scrapped! Also, at the Natl Museum of the USAF they have a display with B-24 parts that were recovered from the Nerherlands. I assume there are still parts to be found there.

[dors]

There has got to be some Boulton Paul Defiant's in the channel somewhere. Would like to see one of those puppies zoomin' around the skies.

[Second Air Force]

Aren't the conditions in the Channel and North Sea especially damaging to metal structures? I think I read an article somewhere years ago that said the saline content, currents, and temperatures were nearly perfect for corroding aluminum and other metals.

Scott

[Pooner]

In one of my books about the B-17 there is a photo of a totally intact B-17 sitting in one of the ploders after it was drained. There was very little visual damage because it made a landing on its gear. It was later scrapped! Also, at the Natl Museum of the USAF they have a display with B-24 parts that were recovered from the Nerherlands. I assume there are still parts to be found there.

The draining of the lake IJsselmeer in the late 1960s was part of a great public works project to reclaim swampy land and this is where numerous Allied and Axis airframes (from both World Wars, but primarily from WWII) made international headlines. All of the airframes were examined by members of the Royal Dutch Air Force, as so many of these airframes contained not only UXO hazards, but also the remains of the ill-fated crew members.

A large percentage of the airframes were examined and indeed scrapped (as this was 25 years after the end of the war). The main focal point at the time was to return the remains of the deceased airmen to their respective counties and to render munitions harmless.

Indeed, some very interesting artifacts taken from Lake IJseelmeer in 1970 survive today in various museums and collections. That any of these artifacts made it to the US at all is, in fact due in part to the professional and personal effort of a late McDonnell Aircraft Co. (McDonnell-Douglas) engineer named Jim Walker.

Walker worked for a special McDonnell programme to test long-term WX exposure on aerospace materials. McDonnell was particularly interested in how aerospace materials used in ICBMs deteriorated over time, and had a team of engineers examining bits and pieces of crashed WWII aircraft as recovered from different climatic extremes around the globe.

Walker, a former military pilot and WWII aircraft afficionado, examined parts taken from a variety of airplanes including the B-24 "Lady Be Good" from the Libyan desert, B-17 "My Gal Sal" from a Greenland ice cap, and pieces from fighters removed from the jungle and even the ocean floor. When he heard of the finds in the Zuider Zee, he asked for items to be sent to St. Louis for continued testing and evaluation.

The Dutch Air Force sent a few samples, and Walker asked for more. In all, several shipments of parts that include airframe, armament, radio components, munitions, hydraulics, electronics, rubber, textiles and more arrived in Missouri.

Upon termination of the testing and evaluation, these items were to be disposed of. Walker saw to it that some of these items were filtered to museums, but there really was little interest in the artifacts at this time. Instead of seeing these items destroyed or sent to the junkyard, the engineer was able to "liberate" them and took them home and tucked them away in garage, attic, and basement. His home literally became a respository of aircraft parts selected from around the globe, a collection wholly paid for by defense contractors and the US government to build "better and safer ICBMs."

From a technical perspective, the parts recovered from the inland sea area provided valuable information to the engineering teams. Some were remarkably preserved despite having been immersed in salt water and mud for 25 + years. Ammunition sent to the manufacturer showed no deterioration, and examination of engine oils, hydraulic fluids, some textiles and rubber components yielded useful scientific data.

One of the most interesting items sent "home" for testing was a propellor hub and blade assembly from B-17G PFF 42-30280 "Crazy Horse" - a Pathfinder 482 BG aircraft lost 21 February 1944 after a bombing raid to Dipholz, Hannover, Germany.

Before his passing several years ago, Walker had said that if he could've figured out a way to have had the Dutch government send a complete airframe back to MD for testing he would have done so.

I'm told that the entire reclaimed area of the lake IJsselmeer is completely devoid of aircraft parts to this day.

Last edited by Pooner on Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[cozmo]

Pooner, that was neat. Thanks