Warbird Information Exchange

Saville began a topic about Spitfires being difficult to takeoff and land, as he had seen a TV program to that effect. Now I wrote the idea that a Spit was so tough to fly that only a superior race of beings could handle one, but somehow that idea did not sell. So here's the truth..

Spitfires are EASY to takeoff, at least that is my experience and most of those that I have witnessed. I came to Spit flying in 1983 as a 400 hour private pilot. I had about 30 hours of tailwheel time, mostly in a Piper Cub, a bit of dual in Stearman, not solo, and a checkout in a T-6 from John Hess, with one solo flight. I owned a Mooney M20 Ranger. On a scale of 1-10, I was about an 8 as a PRIVATE pilot, certainly not any expert. I had a few things going for me, mostly the interest and desire to be good, the patience to learn, I was able to afford lessons, and I had excellent 20-10 vision. And I had a healthy respect for the dangers of bad decisions in flying and even more so warbird flying. Spitfires were more rare then, so when I bought mine, I was able to meet some of the top CAF and warbird guys like Howard Pardue and learn the ropes. My Spit dual was from Earl Ketchen, ex Nam E-6 combat pilot and Reno P-51 racer with the Tired Iron team. I got about 20 hours of dual with Earl in my plane, starting in the rear seat before solo. I was then on my own and went to Osh and had 27 hours in type when I flew the 1st time there. So it can't be that hard. I was competent in the plane, but I wasn't experienced in all the aspects of flying it cross country, and flight planning esp re weather, and we were still learning the plane, like fuel consumption. I tried to be smart and safe, I knew I was not Bob Hoover.

I have read and been asked about torque on takeoff. It is not that big a deal, FOR A TRAINED PILOT. If you sit feet on the floor and static, it can be. Remember that a Spitfire has rudder trim, just like a T-6, Mustang, etc. If you set full right rudder trim as the book suggests, only moderate rudder pressure is needed on takeoff. I use only half trim for takeoffs now, it still is not hard. If you are not used to keeping the nose aligned with the runway in your Cub, Champ, or Citabria, or if you use more than 8lbs boost it can be a problem.
What does the book, the official Pilot Notes for Mk IX say? "There is a tendency to swing to the left, but this can easily be checked with rudder". And dat's da truth. The rudder is very effective on a Spit, especially the larger one like on my late model Mk IX T. I have not flown an early one with the smallest rudder, sure would like to!
Now some people talk about how blind a Spit or P-51 or such is on takeoff. So what? When you roll out on the runway you line the nose up so it is pointed straight down the middle. Then as you advance the throttle you just keep it there, using whatever rudder is needed.
even though you can't see directly over the nose, you can see and feel if the nose starts to move either way. One thing I have noticed in flying with Howard or other top pilots, is they are aware of what is going on with a plane and they make corrections right now. I have taxied or flown dual in other planes with a passenger or novice pilot, and asked them, "what is the nose doing, which way is it moving or pointing" and they can usually tell me right away, the difference is that they don't do anything or enough to correct. And if you feel that you need to see over the nose in order to takeoff, how are you going to land it? And yes I have heard of wheel landings. The nose on a Mk IX Spit is long, it is almost like sighting down a rifle barrel, easy to know where it is pointing. I have just rarely found this hard. Note that I have flown Spit IXs and XVIs, I have not fown a Griffon one, but I have taxied it and don't see a radical difference other than needing left rudder.
Now as you smoothly bring the power up to normal takeoff of plus 7 lbs boost, it will begin to require some right rudder, depending on trim. I hold the stick back, tail down until the airflow pulls it, then ease it to neutral. The pitch is sensitive, it is a matter of easing the stick forward not pushing the nose down. Acceleration is brisk, is needs less runway and less speed than a 51. At 70 knots, slight back pressure and you are off probalby in about 1500 feet. Check the throttle friction, change hands on the stick and raise the gear. Once clean, take out some right trim. set climb rpm at 2650 and go upstairs where Merlins rule. Pretty soon you see this just feels right, powerful, balanced, nimble but not touchy. For me, virtually every time I feel lucky that as an ordinary person I get to fly a fighter, a part of history, and I don't have to risk getting shot at. As for boost in lbs, O llbs is normal atmosphere pressure, lets say 30 inches. At takeoff of 7 lbs, double the 7 to 14 and add the 30 you started with to total 44 inches manifold in U S terms. Minus counts, so in the pattern at -4 equals 22 inches, that is the base 30 in minus 8 inches. I'd sure like to be doing it today.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

Bill, thank you for that nice explanation. Good to hear from a 'veteran'.
For us YANKEES, what would be the conversion from pounds-boost to inches of manifold? Might be nice for the group to know.
Thx,
VL

The Southern contingency is also interested.

Ryan

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Aerial Photographer with Red Wing Aerial Photography currently based at KRBD and tailwheel CFI.
Websites: Texas Tailwheel Flight Training, DoolittleRaid.com and Lbirds.com.

The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but safety is of the LORD. - Prov. 21:31 - Train, Practice, Trust.

From John Deakin's Hurricane pirep:

Manifold pressure is automatically limited to 12 lbs. sq. in. in this engine, but for emergency use, that feature can be cut out with the "Automatic Boost Cutout." Yes, I said "pounds per square inch," and not "inches of mercury" so common in the USA. The manifold pressure gauge is marked so that "0" is ambient pressure. At less than ambient pressure, "Boost" is negative (about -6 at idle), and at higher power settings, "Boost" is positive. There are 2.036 inches of mercury to each 1 pound per square inch, so a takeoff "Boost" of 12.0 is equivalent to 54.35 inches of manifold pressure at sea level (12 x 2.036 + 29.92). All this is of little consequence, because we just use the appropriate "Boost" numbers.

Thanks for sharing Bill.



I have heard the arguments about airflow over the rudder and whether or not to wheel land and airplane, but I still see it as only an argument. I was taught to 3-point the Hvd and landed that way for my first year and have wheel landed for the past 2 years. I have since lost the "finesse" of 3-pointing the airplane and have decided to make all 2009 landings 3-pointers again (with the exception of formation landings for visibility).

Do you 3-point the Spit or wheel it? Why?

Thanks!

Drew

Drew, My normal Spitfire landing is 3 pt or at least that is my goal, for several reasons. I. Merlin Spitfires have excellent slow speed handling and low stall speeds down around 60 knots.so you don't need to come in fast. Normal at the runway end is 80 mph in a single, 80 knots in my two seater. II. There is no lack of rudder control, you don't have to hold the tail up in the airflow. III. Although the tailwheel is not lockable nor steerable, it does provide some stability and feels better when it is on the ground. IV. The plane slows better when 3 pt and I'd rather have the tail down to be more stable and not risk hitting the prop if I need to use the brakes much.

A Spit can make a wheel landing, but the full blown type with extra speed and forward pressure to hold it down on the runway takes a soft touch, as does braking with the tail up in the air. Another good landing is almost 3 pt, tail low and slow, but not quite fully held off for full stall. The RAF pilot notes say 3 pt fully held off, unless you are "unsure" about your height above the runway such as in gusty winds or on a strange runway.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

Interesting on the Spit. Good stuff.
FWIW, I've always considered the rudder trim takeoff setting on the 51 to be almost exactly what the airplane asks for as the first power reduction is made to 46 and 2700 (my METO) rather than of any use at all during the takeoff run.
I've made takeoffs in the Mustang with neutral trim and had no issues with torque during the run. All normal corrections well within the aircraft's limit parameter.
I say torque, but it's rather a more general left turning tendencies correction with right rudder for P Factor as you start the run, rudder for gyroscopic precession as the nose comes down, rudder for slipstream effects generally through the run,some right aileron for the torque as you near rotation,and a tad more rudder again for precess as the nose rotates through the rotation.
The Mustang handles well through the run and into the climb with these normal corrections in play, and that right rudder trim set at 6 degrees right feels perfect as the power reduction is made and you're all trimmed up for the climb without touching the lateral trim at that point.
I 'm assuming your 2 hole Spit is a light lighter than the Mustang and a joy to handle.
Dudley Henriques

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Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship

Throw away the calculator and just use:

For positive boost (psi X 2) +30
For negative boost 30 - (psi X 2)

to convert to in hg.

It'll be close enough!

Glenn

Glenn - have you got a fast conversion for metric manifold pressure to inches?

Unfortunately, I don't speak Metric!

Metric is best left to the Whiz Wheel...

Thanks for the discussion Bill. It's always interesting to read contemporary reports on these aircraft since they're being flown by guys who've had quite a bit more training than those who learned to fly them in the war (your 300 compared with a wartime 50-100).

The Kingfish was always trying to fleece Andy out of what few dollars he had; and the phrase was "Andy, now I gonna splain it to ya". Glen has given a precise splain it in numbers of converting lbs of boost to manifold pressure, which is better than what I wrote. By the way, one of my two favorite "Andy" cons was when Kingfish got some old junk car with no engine to sell to Andy. To prove it was really a fine Italian import, Kingfish got the label of a wine bottle an put on the hood, thus Andy was the only one in his town to own a "Chianti", "a step up from a Ferrari".

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

Bill,

I always thought we were about the same age until now. Appaerntly, judging from that post, you are definitely quite a bit older...

Don't give me the re-runs story!

Glenn

I'm in the middle of rereading a book, "Fighter, the True Story of the Battle of Britain" by Len Deighton. I'm a 138 pages in and the Battle has yet to start, been going through Luftwaffe vs RAF training, equipment, background, staff politics, and other minutia. He states that a number of "trained" pilots reached the squadrons with NO monoplane hours. Squadrons often had to do a bit of training themselves to get pilots to speed on Hurries and Spits!

Don't know if I would want to go straight from biplane to high performance fighter, might be part of the "quite a handfull on take-off" if pilots had little or no training on the type!

Thanks for the insight Bill!

Drew