The NHC Rumor Mill...

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Tue Nov 04, 2008 11:57 pm

On Jack's recent P-47 thread that got so far off topic :roll:

there were some interesting comments and allusions to possible new directions. For instance -

RickH wrote:

The matter of historical artifact recovery has now been written into public law. In the past there was no mechanism to allow recovery of an aircraft, certainly not with uniform guidelines.

Congress fixed that, now, all recoverys must be permitted by the service that originally owned the aircraft. A permit process has now been created.

You must now apply to Maxwell or the NHC for a permit to recover. You must also disclose the serial or BuNo as part of the permit process. There the similiarity ends. Maxwell rubberstamps your permit and off you go. The NHC, however, will look at the permit application and determine if the BuNo submitted has historical significance to the Navy. I mean if you find a generic Hellcat that wasn't David McCampbell's you will probably be issued a permit to recover.

The guy at NHC who was such a pain is gone. The retired Admiral now running NHC appears to be taking a much more practical approach to this matter.

Anyway, there do seem to be indications that Pensacola is going to be able to start recovering aircraft again very soon.

After some changes at NHC the people there have apparently been trying to get permission for recoveries from Lake Michigan and perhaps other sites and may have finally received that permission. Of course, no details yet.

Ryan

mlenoch · **Posted:** Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:06 am

Side bar to above post:
Are the Lake Michigan warbirds' BuNos publically known?
Thx,
VL

Dan K · **Posted:** Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:06 am

vlado wrote:

Side bar to above post:
Are the Lake Michigan warbirds' BuNos publically known?
Thx,
VL

An article posted at the NHC website states that the deck logs of both USS Wolverine and USS Sable are on file with the National Archives. I assume that copies could be obtained through NARA. I don't know that the deck log always listed the BuNo of aircraft lost, but could certainly be cross-referenced with an Aircraft Accident Record. The deck log would also indicate coordinates of where the aircraft went into the drink, as well as pilot status.

John Dupre · **Posted:** Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:17 am

I thought that most or at least the best recoveries from Lake Michigan had already happened? How many more can there be? Are there "ahem" surveys to indicate where good candidates for recovery are?

mlenoch · **Posted:** Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:21 am

I understand there are 30-50 more Navy aircraft still in the lake.
SNJs, F8Fs, F6Fs are some of the types.
VL

tulsaboy · **Posted:** Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:32 am

The A&T recovery guys say they have recovered 31 aircraft from Lake Michigan. I seem to recall that over 100 went into the lakes during the war. Presumably some of those are still good. The A&T guys watch this site, as one of them has posted here before. So maybe he'll chime in with some general idea of what is still there. I've heard mention of a birdcage corsair, TBD, etc.

kevin

Django · **Posted:** Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:00 am

tulsaboy wrote:

I've heard mention of a birdcage corsair, TBD, etc.

kevin

Wow, how would you like to see those in the air once again!

262crew · **Joined:** Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:24 pm **Posts:** 877

This would be a good one to recover!

http://www.nwrain.net/~newtsuit/recover ... bm/pbm.htm

262crew · **Joined:** Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:24 pm **Posts:** 877

Scroll down and use the forwad and back tabs at the lower right to see the other aircraft at the bottom of lake Washington.

Django · **Posted:** Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:30 am

That and also the PB4Y-2.

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:56 am

According to some sources there may be close to 400 aircraft :shock:

in Lake Michigan including at least one "birdcage" Corsair and some other rare types like SNJ-2s, a SB2U and a few straight wing F4Fs that have not been recovered yet.

Ryan

Warbird Kid · **Posted:** Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:59 am

Lake Michigan is defenitlly our cash cow i think. Its just amazing what we've been able to pull up, and what may still be found. Are there only Navy types in the lake? Or could we find a P-38, P-47, B-26, B-24 maybe?

shoki · **Posted:** Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:56 pm

Is there any chance of a Brewster Buffalo in the lake. It would be great to see one in the someday.

Dan K · **Posted:** Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:09 pm

shoki wrote:

Is there any chance of a Brewster Buffalo in the lake. It would be great to see one in the someday.

If any chance of a Buffalo existed, the Navy certainly would have pursued this option rather than the fiasco with the Finnish example in Russia.

I don't believe 400 is an accurate number, and some aircraft that were ditched in shallow water were recovered during the war.

Using the deck logs of the Wolverine and Sable, the NHC has published the following results of Naval aircraft lost during operations of 1942-1945:

The Navy used various aircraft for these training qualifications. Through ship’s logs and Aircraft Accident Cards we know that of the aircraft listed as lost were 41 TBM/TBF Avengers, one F4U Corsair, 38 SBD Dauntless, four F6F Hellcats, 17 SNJ Texans, two SB2U Vindicators, 37 FM/F4F Wildcats and three experimental drones known as TDNs.10 Several of the aircraft used for training had prior military history. Some served in Pacific campaigns, others in North Africa. Very few were new planes...

A number of years ago a rumor was floating around that divers had discovered a four-engined aircraft submerged offshore in the Green Bay area, but I've never seen any photographic evidence to support this idea.

jamesintucson · **Joined:** Sat Jan 29, 2005 1:42 am **Posts:** 546

262crew wrote:

This would be a good one to recover!

http://www.nwrain.net/~newtsuit/recover ... bm/pbm.htm

The tail of that plane is on display at Pima along with the intact PBM.

James

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