Anyone have 337 of smoke system for T-6 SNJ as example

Mike Robinson · **Joined:** Fri Jan 01, 2010 9:26 am **Posts:** 76

Does anyone have a 337 of a smoke system for a T-6 SNJ that I can show as an example..... not to be used as approved data.
Of course I can request copies of the airworthiness CD from the FAA off of any N number out there but I don't know of any off the top of my head. I have looked at the 337 pdf's off of smokingairplanes.com which are all fielfd approvals well after the year 2000.
I have seen one 337 off of a T-6 which I ordered the CD-Rom from the FAA but have subsequently lost that CD and N-Number.

My Cell Phone 912-547-5477 Fax 912-496-4648 E-Mail: pilot_mike.robinson@yahoo.com

I have submitted a request for field approval with aircraft certification office concurrence.

The FAA Insp says it is not enough info.

But my 337 has more clarity (I believe) than many of the smoke system 337's that I have seen field approved since 2000.

All my mentors in this field over the years were WWII and have since gone west.

This system was previously installed on this airplane and when doing the annual I found it and removed it because it was undocumented. Now the owner wants it re installed. It was not even in the W&B. The previous owner had it for over 15 years and knows it was there and is just being a (fill in the word) instead of helping locate who did it in that they may have their 337 field approval and it may have just been lost and never sent in... so I guess I will not be trying to protect the previous mechanics. But being the previous owner knew it was installed and did nothing about it and continued to fly it..... being a (____) about it isn't going to help him for I was going to try to not mention that it had been previously installed and we were installing it first time. The new owner can testify that it was installed previously as he has credibility in that he is a prominent DPE and former head pilot at customs.

Here is what I wrote and I wanted to show this FAA Insp examples of other SNJ and T-6 Smoke System Field Approvals but I don't have any for the SNJ or T-6.

I don't feel though that someone elses previous field approval is approved data but would just be an example. And I may be wrong. What do those here think.

Section 8. Description of work accomplished:
To document, inspect and reinstall previously installed on this aircraft Aviation Smoke Oil System, to include ICA. A 3.5 gallon square tank of .063 welded aluminum installed at station 54 close to aircraft center of gravity within confines of airframe tubular steel super structure. Fastened to the steel tube frame using welded attach flanges, standard aircraft hardware and strapping clamps. Tank was designed for aircraft use, is determined to be in conformance with FAR 23.561 "g" load limits, is protected within heavy steel tube superstructure. Aluminum screwed on fill cap located on top of tank accessed through rear cockpit placarded "Smoke Oil Tank". Replace with new Flojet pn 2100-311 sn 10C12107 oil rated DC 24volt 3.5amp 60psi self priming on demand pump as used in previous installations. Manufacturers manual specifies pump will not be damaged when tank runs dry. Pump is on demand; if flow restricted, pumping action shuts down automatically. Pump is mounted below smoke oil tank, is gravity fed and attached to original heavy radio attachment plate at station 50. Pump electrically protected by 7.5 amp standard aircraft circuit breaker switch protected from inadvertent actuation by red standard switch guard placarded OFF ON with guard open and switch down being on. Switch mounted left forward side rail of front cockpit. Threaded vent line installed at high point of tank for all positive gravity operations routed overboard as is hydraulic reservoir vent. Tank connected via flexible MIL-H-6000-4 oil hose from tank outlet along lower right side steel tubular airframe structure through fire wall via AN bulkhead fitting continued along engine mount to new replaced Parker 20CC02PV4B oil rated 24V .3amp 8watt 60psi solenoid valve sprung to closed when smoke pump switch power off to prevent siphoning as previously installed. MIL-H-6000-4 hose then connects to ferruled aircraft copper tubing through exhaust baffling fire wall taking into account flexibility for vibration between engine and its mount to connect to oil dispensing jet in exhaust collector tail pipe. Dispense jet attached with same design used for standard EGT temp probes. Jet held in exhaust exit duct via large steel hose clamp tightened against flange around edge of jettison tube. Referencing 43.13-1B oil lines are installed in accordance with chap 8 section 1 and 3 and electrical installation made in accordance with requirements of chap 11 section 3 through 12 and 15. It has been determined that the interrelationship of this installation and any other previously approved configuration has not introduced any adverse effect upon the airworthiness of this aircraft. Weight & Balance revised to include arm for aviation smoke oil addition. System to be used in accordance with FAR 137.37 and other appropriate FAR.
---INSTRUCTIONS FOR CONTINUED AIRWORTHINESS---
1) Introduction: North American SNJ-5 Serial 51828
2) Description: To document, inspect and reinstall previously installed Aviation Smoke Oil System, to include ICA.
3) Control, operation information: Smoke system activated by opening "Smoke Oil" placarded red switch guard front cockpit activating switch down energizing 3.5 amp max draw pump & 0.3 amp oil solenoid valve to exhaust dispenser.
4) Service information: Oil tank accessed via rear cockpit with approved smoke oil only. Equivalents: Super*Dri Aviation Smoke Oil, Chevron Canopus #13, Shell Carnea #10, Shell Vitrea 13, Unocal 76-76 Klondyke, BP Enerpar 10.
DO NOT USE FLAMMABLE SUBSTANCES, JET FUEL, DIESEL, KEROSENE or GASOLINE
5) Maintenance Instructions: Periodic inspection of smoke system to be done in accordance with FAR 43 appendix D.
6) Troubleshooting info: Pump and solenoid valve procedures located in Flojet 2100 Pump manual & Parker 204 Valve manual in aircraft records & requested to be added to FAA CD-ROM. Remainder of system in accordance with Part 43.
7) Removal and replacement information: If pump or solenoid valve replaced with different manufacture or model it should only be replaced with part of same pressure, flow, amp & design and with revision of ICA and 337 sent to the local FAA FSDO. Standard part 43 inspection practices for normal part replacement and connected systems repair.

Diagrams: Refer to pump manual in aircraft logs for wiring info. No other diagrams necessary for inspection.
9) Special inspection requirements: Non required
10) Application of protective treatment: Non required
11) Data: Pump manual to be located in aircraft log books.
12) List of special tools: None required
13) For commuter category aircraft: Not applicable
14) Recommended overhaul periods: No overhaul time limitations
15) Airworthiness limitations section: Not applicable
16) Revisions: To revise ICA a letter will be submitted to local FAA office with copy of revised FAA form 337 and ICA

This is what the Insp said.

Before we can do any more with your field approval proposal, we will need
more data to look over. My initial
impression is that your data package is incomplete and needs to show more
information about the installation. Actual pictures, drawings, installation
instructions parts lists and a list of materials, etc. will certainly help
us to properly and thoroughly evaluate this proposal.

We would like to direct your attention to FAA Advisory Circular, AC 43-210,
Standardized Procedures for Requesting Field Approvals of Data, Major
Alterations and Repairs. We recommend that you review the information in
this circular and resubmit your request with the data required for us to
evaluate the alteration requested.

Me: I have used the AC and complied with it's direction.
I asked for ACO concurrence for I believe they would better handle than the regular insp initial response.

Matt Gunsch · **Posted:** Fri Sep 10, 2010 10:29 am

I don't have a copy of the 337 I can lay my hands on right now, but I have installed several smoke systems and used the field approved 337 from Carl Schmieder's plane, T-6G N2757G, as approved data, another system I installed was on SNJ-3 N5287N. There are probably 6 or more T-6s using that 337 as approved data.

Mike Robinson · **Joined:** Fri Jan 01, 2010 9:26 am **Posts:** 76

Hey Thanks for that info Matt.

I feel I should not have to copy someone elses 337 and in that have to do the installation exactly as so.

I feel my 337 fits the bill on its own.

I feel like I am cheating if I ride someone elses approval trying to cite it as approved data.

But don't want to mess up the procedural system we have in place either.

I may be too full of piss and vinegar at 44yrs.

It is a long way fron the good old days when we had some inspectors that really had aircraft experience and had the balls to stand on what they know instead of riding some other inspectors shirt tail.

This particular inspectors name is synonymous with a previous president that was riding someone elses shirt tails as well.

I am going back to the AC and go over everything and then say something here again for help.

If anyone sees anything wrong with the above Description of Work section 8 please say something.

Jase · **Posted:** Sat Sep 11, 2010 12:43 pm

Mike: Only thing I saw that jumps out at me is where are you pulling elec power from? I've had experience with an AI who wanted to know all about the electric circuits and very little about the structural stuff. I might add in where the power is pulled from, size of wire, where breaker located, etc etc. I know you referenced 43.13 chapter 11, but need some more than that. One other thing is, is there a single breaker covering the whole ckt, pump *&* solenoid valve, or will they be split down?

Good luck, I'll look for a 337 on some of my local -6's if I have a chance.

Mike Robinson · **Joined:** Fri Jan 01, 2010 9:26 am **Posts:** 76

Pulling power from the main buss which is inside the cb switch panel in the left lower side of the front instrument panel.
Many later model aircraft as we know use a $100 CB Switch now a days instead of a separate switch and breaker to save weight.

An example to me is on the Strobe Light Power supply CB Switch I replaced on a King Air 200 a few days ago.

In this I am looking at having one 7.5 amp CB Switch feeding two circuits that are associated as common place. My example, the 3.5 amp pump in this unit with a 0.3 amp solenoid as compared to some other situations like avionics for example where on some systems all the components are powered off of one master cb switch without utilizing a radio master solenoid and that as well powers more than one unit.

Also if you look at 337 field approvals that have been approved on other airplanes other than T-6's many of them don't specify what the part number of the switch is... just that it is standard aircraft which would be a TSO switch meant to handle the load and amps required per the 43. Many don't list the wires size yet if following 43 and done in accordance with then they would meet the standard if put together by the appropriate certificated individual following this guidance.

I appreciate the writing. I like doing things to a higher standard and exceed the regs......... of my own accord......... I don't like being required to be held to a higher standard than what is required by the regs in seeing what my peers and other other FAA inspectors have approved as compared to mine.

Thanks for allowing me to vent for I don't know many warbird people any more as all mine have went west without leaving anyone here to look after me.

And the FAA guy doesn't help much.

I really appreciate any info or thoughts at all.

Matt Gunsch · **Posted:** Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:27 pm

I found a approved 337 for the smoke system

Mike Robinson · **Joined:** Fri Jan 01, 2010 9:26 am **Posts:** 76

Thanks Capt Matt

Good example

I really appreciate the time you are taking and uploading that as an example.

Waco · **Posted:** Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:44 am

Ahhh - The signature in the FAA block says it all. Tom Blatz was one of the really good guys at the old PHX FSDO. A Pearl Harbor survivor, after the war, he came up through the ranks in industry before joining the FAA and was a realist when it came to maintenance. He was my mentor as a wet-behind-the ears AP/AI and turned out to be a good friend. You could count on him to provide black and white answers to your questions, and he was always ready to lend a hand and help you through the maze of regs. He would hand you his card, tell you his home phone number was on the back and to call anytime you had a problem (he got more than one midnight phone call from me). I miss him dearly. Too bad the Fed's are severly lacking in people of his caliber today. Not to say there's not a few around, but it ain't like the old days.

A few years ago the FAA essentially put a moritorium on issuing field approvals, and it became nearly impossible if you didn't hire a DER. They have since relaxed that stance a bit, but, most field approvals are now pushed down to the lowest guy on the pole in the office, and they've got those guys so scared of liability issues, they put you through the ringer trying to cover their own six o'clocks. The more 337's you can gather to submit as previously approved data, the better chance you've got. Moving up the food chain in the office, up to and including the Airworthiness Supervisor or office manager might help.

BTW, where in JAX are you located? I get down to Flightstar at Cecil Field quite a bit to check on planes we have going through...usually TDY there for 30 days at a stretch...maybe we can get together on my next trip for a Fresca.

I plan on installing smoke in my T-6 this winter and luckily, I have a good guy at our FSDO to work with. Matt - thanks for the 337, that'll help me out as well...

Chris

Mike Robinson · **Joined:** Fri Jan 01, 2010 9:26 am **Posts:** 76

3J6 Davis Field Folkston Georgia the big hanger half way down the runway.
Built by own hands.
45 minutes drive to Cecil which is quick down US1

I used to work for the owners of Flight Star when it was PMS Professional Modification Service in Miami.

I definitely would want to meet up with others for dinner etc.

Only been in this area 5 years since moved from Corrosion Corner MIA.

More later .... Monday morning chores

Wish FAA guys would read that and be able to help. In fact if I were able to get hired at FAA I would want to be one of the guys that help. tommy bush atl fsdo

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Anyone have 337 of smoke system for T-6 SNJ as example

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