Should Winners Fly The Oskosh Show?

[Bill Greenwood]

On another topic I mentioned that it would be great to see some of the top planes, that are new to Oshkosh fly in the show. I know that 3 of the top 4 fighters did not fly, I am not sure about Jack Roush's 51B. So what do folks think about this, Does it matter? Is it too much burden for the owners or pilots? Is the show that hard to fly in, or unsafe?

Several others agreed, one person suggested that awards not be given unless the plane is in the show. To me that is going too far. First, one never knows about the weather, so a hard and fast rule is not good. Also nobody would want to risk a superb paint job flying through rain, or landing in high winds. EAA should not do anything that discourages owners from bringing new restorations in, even if only for static. As a compromise let's say an extra judging point could be given if a plane flies, thus its a tie breaker. It would be interesting if the judging scores were posted after the awards so we could see just how, if any one, plane scores higher than another.

What I would like to see is when something unique, rare and historic, like the Spitfire V, comes in the Warbirds/EAA ask the pilot or owner to fly in the warbird portion, and make them Know they are Welcome there. A few years back a Me 109, Buchon, came and just sat on the ground. As far as I know, no effort was made by the bosses to see it fly. I don't know if such a welcome would do any good, but it might. I realize the owner may never have flown at Osh, or be a very low time pilot, or not have insurance. Osh is the only show I have ever seen that comes up with the requirement that insurance specifly "fly by" coverage, which seems kind of silly as vitually all show participation involves a fly by. It also involves a takeoff and landing, but the coverage does not have to specify that.

[retroaviation]

Well, they flew in didn't they?

What I mean by that is that waaaay back when I did a fair amount of car shows, there were folks that used to whoop me in the judging competition, with cars that were not only trailered in, but that were rarely even driven. Mine, in the mean time, was my daily driver. Didn't seem quite fair in my eyes. However, I didn't seem to have as much trouble with someone who actually drove their car to the show, even if it wasn't their only ride, like mine was, and only drove it on the weekends, to car shows.

There are many pilots that have no desire (myself included) to fly "in the show" at Oshkosh. Heck, it's scary enough just arriving and departing, much less flying in a show where, in my opinion, the briefings are more or less just a suggestion, not the rule. I probably don't need to get too much deeper into opinions here though.

Now don't get me wrong, I think it's kick-*ss to watch all of the planes flying, particularly the coolest ones there, but I just don't know if it's every pilot's "cup of tea" to be flying in that type of environment. Make sense?

Gary

[Jerry O'Neill]

I actually like the idea of flying them, but perhaps not in the warbird portion.
Maybe they could have a parade of winners on Sunday (of those that are still on the field) where ALL the winners are asked to do a simple 2-3 pass fly-by and then return to a cetral point on the ground for a family "portrait".
This way, everyone could get a chance to see the best Oshkosh has to offer all in one place.
Jerry

[k5083]

Bill, I like your tiebreaker judging point idea, but also how about this:

Two days after the judging, instead of the regular airshow, have the airshow be devoted to the top award winners from each show plane category (warbirds, antiques, experimental, etc.). By invitation only, the winners of top awards in each category, including the best type/class specific award (best fighter, best T-6, etc.) are showcased in the Parade of Winners. Anyone who enters their bird for judging would be required to agree to stick around and participate in this show unless there is a safety-related (like Gary's) or other good reason. Advantages:

* Attendees get to see the prize airplanes fly, at a predictable time
* Increases day to day variation in airshow content
* Lets attendees know what won, which many don't learn until they get their next Sport Aviation
* Celebrates the common thread of quality of workmanship uniting all showplane builders and restorers in the true EAA spirit
* Extra publicity and attention may encourage the winners to participate
* Number of aircraft participating is relatively small and can be sorted by performance to address safety issues with dissimilar aircraft

August

[k5083]

Jerry beat me to the idea! We even independently came up with the same name.

August

[Jerry O'Neill]

Jerry beat me to the idea! We even independently came up with the same name.

August

If you didn't have to type so much you would've beat me!
I just kept mine short and sweet!
I like the heavier details in your post...but I still won!
Jerry

[Django]

The winners parade is a good idea. *Seems* like it would be a less stressful environment.

[retroaviation]

I agree with what's been said above.......Jerry is clearly the winner.

Gary

[Matt Gunsch]

everyone talks about how scary it is to fly into OSH, I flew my 177RG to there in 2000, and did not have any real problems, I had 2 minor ones, one was a guy in front of me not going fast enough,He should have been north of the tracks because of his speed. I was wallowing around with gear and flaps down, the controller saw this and had him do a 360, I just went past him. As I entered downwind for 27, I had a F4U climb up into the downwind in front of me. I follwed him and was told to open it up to allow one to enter in front of me. I extended out over the lake, still could not find the other plane, tower said he was on short final, I finally spotted him, he was flying his pattern at 500 ft, so no wonder I never saw him, I was looking where he was supposed to be, if he was flying a pattern altitude like everyone else.

It is not hard, just have to listen and keep your head on a swivel. I have had more problems flying into smaller local shows than I have had flying into OSH.

Going out was a piece of cake, I took off on 27, and flew runway heading.

[Bill Greenwood]

Gary, you can't really be that afraid of the "big show". Aren't you the guy who lives and works in the land of rattlesnakes? Aren't you the guy who flew the little racer cross country over hundreds of miles of bad terrain and then flew in the races? Aren't you the guy who risked the wrath of the Gods by denigrating the Mighty Magic Merlin, and touting the ground hugging V-12 Chevy over it?

Ok, now to be serious here. There are certainly some risks in flying in the warbirds show, but I don't think they are enough to exclude it. Much of the time it has involved nothing more complex than following the guy in front of you, and making several laps of fly bys from the same right hand traffic pattern. The only real sticky points are the wake turbulence ahead of you on the passes or takeoff/landing, which is the same everywhere, and the fact that there may be other groups of planes in the air and you have to keep a sharp eye out for them. I have flown in the show for over 20 years, in both Spitfire and T-34, single file as well as in formation, and I think it is reasonable to do so. I began as a 500 hour private pilot with 26 hours in type that first year, without formation or acro ratings. An additional item of safety at OSH is you have two big runways under you and flat terrain around. Most of the pilots are better than average, some are expert, and the air boss is usually more knowlegeable than normal ATC.

The briefing there is like anywhere and better then many. It is certainly not just a suggestion, HOWEVER any briefing is a PLAN, NOT A GUARANTEE. Things can change, a plane can scratch or start late and fall in at the end of the group.

Gary, it seems to me that one reason to own a warbird is to fly it in shows with other warbirds. If not it would be kind of like owning Rare Bear or Strega or Dago and taking it to Reno as a static display only. It's still cool, and great, but sort of like keeping a dog on the leash when you go out for a walk. LET EM RUN, be it Merlin, Pratt or German Shepard.

Last edited by Bill Greenwood on Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[retroaviation]

Gary, you can't really be that afraid of the "big show". Aren't you the guy who lives and works in the land of rattlesnakes? Aren't you the guy who flew the little racer cross country over hundreds of miles of bad terrain and then flew in the races? Aren't you the guy who risked the wrath of the Gods by denigrating the Mighty Magic Merlin, and touting the ground hugging V-12 Chevy over it?

Yup, and I was scared to death with each of those examples......except for the Merlin part you mentioned.

Look, I'm not saying that I don't want to see those airplanes fly. For cryin' out loud, I've gotta be right up there in the ranks with the other Warbird junkies that love these old airplanes. Like I mentioned before, perhaps all of my opinions on this aren't appropriate for a forum, but I still have my opinions. I DO, however, like the idea that Jerry and August mention about having just a parade of winners session. Heck, for that matter, it would be kind of cool to see some of the Vintage and Experimental winners do the same.

Gary

[Bill Greenwood]

Gary, certainly you can and should express your opinions. That is why I started this topic, to see what people think and why. Now to be perfectly serious, have you flown/ridden in this show? Have you been to any/many of the briefings? Where do you find that it is done much better? Sure, BKD but that doesn't count, it is a different situation.

The idea of a Parade of Winners sounds interesting, but doesn't work cause it would have to be Sun the last day only. Also the parade or showcase theme is very limited in speed, etc. Not a real warbird thing, and yes I flew in it once.

[retroaviation]

Gary, certainly you can and should express your opinions. That is why I started this topic, to see what people think and why. Now to be perfectly serious, have you flown/ridden in this show? Have you been to any/many of the briefings? Where do you find that it is done much better? Sure, BKD but that doesn't count, it is a different situation.

Yes, I have flown into and out of and during the show (was the Flight Engineer in the B-24 during the show last year, does that count?). It sucks being in a Sea Fury (back seater), on short final, with the gear and flaps down, just as the pilot is easing the power back, over the fence, when the "controller" on the ground gives the "go ahead" to a little Cessna 150, who apparently never looked to his left to see if anyone was landing, and just drives out on the runway, under us. Yup, that sucks. Scary is a good term here. Go arounds (even in the back seat) are not fun in a Sea Fury. Thank Goodness that the Fury driver was one hell of a good stick. What's even less fun in a go around in a Sea Fury at OSH is the fact that in doing so, you just screwed up any other "controllers" that are doing their thing there and they got so frazzled that just as we were catching our breath, a flight of four or six or forty nine T-34's came over the runway as we were going through about 400 ft AGL or so, which caused us to essentially part the flight like Moses parting the Red Sea, which, naturally worsened the condition for everyone. And guess who the "bad guys" were. Yup, us in the Sea Fury. Heck, I reckon we should've just landed on top of the Cessna and just called it a day, huh?

Or how about when, as a spectator, we watched a Phantom dang near have the same scenario happen to him, as someone in some sort of Spam Can, was cleared onto the runway. Ever seen a Phantom do a short, but more successful version of the "Sabre Dance?" Thank Goodness the pilot (I think Gen. Ritchie) was a good stick. Scary.

Yes, I've been there for the briefings too. Yes, I realize that things can (and sometimes SHOULD) change, but I also think that the Airboss and his or her assistants should be more aware of what's going on. There should be one person "in charge" of the show and it's changes that may take place, there should be at least one person keeping an eye on departing traffic, and at least one person keeping an eye on landing traffic. It just reduces a link in the classic "chain of events" that can happen during the waivered portion of these types of shows (the earlier two examples of the Fury and the Phantom were during the mass arrival, not during waivered times). Just think about IF someone was paying attention to landing traffic last year, perhaps someone could've gotten on the radio and told my friend (and many of yours), Gerry Beck, that he should go around, if for no other reason than "it just didn't look right." I know that this type of thing won't always help, but that extra set of eyes can't be a bad thing, can it?

And yes, I DO think there's a better place that it's done much better.......Reno. Yes, yes, I know that air racing and airshow environments are two different things, BUT they also have one heck of an airshow at Reno (yes, I also know that there are no mass flyovers there). Do people die there? Yep. Does it suck? Of course it does. But typically, when folks lose their lives in Reno, it's during a race and while they're doing something they love and know there's a risk in doing it. I've yet to see two Mustangs land on top of one another at Reno, or have a Corsair slam into a Bearcat on takeoff, or two airplanes hit each other during a landing approach on arrival to the airport.

And not only that, but the rescue crews at Reno are the best there are...period! I've had two seperate Maydays there and both times, the trucks were rolling beside or behind me before my airplane even stopped rolling. In a major airshow event that's held in Florida, I had another friend of mine die after suffocating in the cockpit of his overturned airplane (and no, its not likely a roll over structure would've made a difference, as the windshield and vertical fin had simply sunk in the soft sand, much like that structure would have done), while rescuers stood around, "not wanting to break the airplane in half by picking it up." 12 minutes. It took them 12 minutes to get him out. Absolutely unacceptable. Try holding YOUR breath that long.

And look, I'm NOT just getting on other airshow's and airbosses' cases. We can certainly make some improvements here in Midland, and we are working on it. The point is that ALL of these bigger airshows could use some "tweaking" in the operational part of them. Saying, "we've done it this way for years" is a crappy attitude and needs to change.

So, there you have it. You wanted my opinion, there it is. I reckon folks can start flaming me now, but I'm pretty firm on my beliefs on this issue. Do I have all the answers? Heck no! But I'm trying to make a difference.

Body armor on, ducking for cover.

Gary

[Bill Greenwood]

Gary, your opinion is mostly on flying into or out of Oskosh during the non waiver times. That has little or nothing to do with flying in the airshow. Yes, I agree that it can be hectic coming into there with all the other traffic. But in some ways that is better than Midland, we have a warbird arrival and controllers who generally aren't hostile and we don't have airline traffic to dodge.
All the show planes are supposed to fly into OSH before judging, so flying in the show or not doesn't change the arrival part. You do have to be careful. I have done many go arounds there and did one last year as I didn't think it was worth the risk to land behind a Cessna and hope he would clear. Anyone flying a Fury or other warbird should be proficient in go around before solo and we need to keep sharp at airshows. You can sometimes taylor the Osh arrival a bit by trying to come in at less busy times like early am. Also the controller only clears you to land, he does not make the final decision for you.
I have never flown at Reno or attended that briefing. I don't know how that airshow compares to EAA, my guess is far less planes are involved at one time.
Your idea of an observer with a radio sounds good on the surface, and is one I and others have considered. .It might have saved Gerry, or prevented my accident at Galveston. But it is fraught with pitfalls. Who is qualified to be the observer and where is he going to be stationed? What can he say in a true emergency? It has to be quick and exact, and no unecessary distractions. At Galveston, if someone had told me at the last minute "SPITFIRE TURN RIGHT, THE RUNWAY IS BLOCKED", maybe I could have avoided the accident. But if they said, "GO AROUND", and I tried it at last minute while I was already down and slowing, it could have been fatal to us both.

[garbs]

Bill Greenwood said "I know that 3 of the top 4 fighters did not fly, I am not sure about Jack Roush's 51B. "



She did fly in the show on Tuesday the 29th. I was at the north end of the show line and they all came in on a tight left base for 18.

Chris