franz stigler

[groundpounder]

wahoo!! i just got off tha phone with a fellow that is handling the estate of Franz Stigler. He ,of course , is the luftwaffe pilot who showed the crew of ÿe olde pub" B-17 mercy when he had the opportunity to finish them off. anyhooo..... im going over to his house this evening to buy a painting of capt. charlie browns B-17 landing after that mission. the kicker is that it is signed by him( mr. brown) and i will also get a signed pic as well. He says that he has many more items that he is sifting through , so you can bet that some real gems are going to be uncovered,and guess who's gonna be there ....me! i'll keep you guys posted if anything really cool comes out of this!!

[262crew]

wahoo!! i just got off tha phone with a fellow that is handling the estate of Franz Stigler. He ,of course , is the luftwaffe pilot who showed the crew of ÿe olde pub" B-17 mercy when he had the opportunity to finish them off. anyhooo..... im going over to his house this evening to buy a painting of capt. charlie browns B-17 landing after that mission. the kicker is that it is signed by him( mr. brown) and i will also get a signed pic as well. He says that he has many more items that he is sifting through , so you can bet that some real gems are going to be uncovered,and guess who's gonna be there ....me! i'll keep you guys posted if anything really cool comes out of this!!

It might be the same water color painting we have at work? It to was signed by Mr. Brown but it was also signed by Mr. Stigler and IIRC Mr. Stigler gave us the painting on one of his visits to the project. Very nice man!

[tom d. friedman]

lucky dog!!! you've got bragging rights for sure!!

[Jack Cook]

He ,of course , is the luftwaffe pilot who showed the crew of ÿe olde pub" B-17 mercy when he had the opportunity to finish them off.

That was all made up
http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=21437&highlight=franz+stigler

[262crew]

He ,of course , is the luftwaffe pilot who showed the crew of ÿe olde pub" B-17 mercy when he had the opportunity to finish them off.

That was all made up
http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=21437&highlight=franz+stigler

If so it is a great story!

[groundpounder]

jack, you post some great pics to be sure,and i thank you for doing so,but darn if you dont remind me of a guy named Dik Sheppard sometimes. lighten up dude!!

[Jack Cook]

I know-I know "never let the truth get in the way of a good story" right. Ask artist Rick Herter. He did a painting of Fred Arnold/Kohn's fantansy dogfight with "Mueller" called "Strange Bedfellows" and made/marketed limited edition prints then found out it was a bogus story. I bet he would have liked to known beforehand. Then there's Kawato.....no comment Some folks think that throwing a few facts out make you a revisionist. From my view point the folks on wix work hard for their money and deserve to have the intell before spending the greenbacks. I first met Franz over 30 years ago, have flown with him in the ME-108, stayed at his house and have some nice photos and such he sent me. His wife Hiya, BTW, was expecially delightful. But all things being fair, Franz was also a storyteller and was a participant in THE only documented case of false aerial victory claiming in history. How does that make me Dik Shepard??

[groundpounder]

your negativity. i have heard a very different side of the story,which sounds entirely plausable although i wasnt there to see it. whatever happened in africa,according to your posted charts,franz certainly wasnt among the worst of offenders, if he offended at all. what kind of fighter pilot wouldnt embelish a story or two anyway? this however has nothing to do with whatever happened in /over germany. your quickness to write the man off as a phony and a liar has very little basis in fact. why dont you and your historical crystal ball tell us all what really happened that day and put the matter to rest once and for all. either that or let sleeping dogs lie. no pun in tended.

[Jack Cook]

groundpounder said

blah-blah-blah

Do a little research

[Nathan]

I know-I know "never let the truth get in the way of a good story" right. Ask artist Rick Herter. He did a painting of Fred Arnold/Kohn's fantansy dogfight with "Mueller" called "Strange Bedfellows" and made/marketed limited edition prints then found out it was a bogus story. I bet he would have liked to known beforehand. Then there's Kawato.....no comment Some folks think that throwing a few facts out make you a revisionist. From my view point the folks on wix work hard for their money and deserve to have the intell before spending the greenbacks. I first met Franz over 30 years ago, have flown with him in the ME-108, stayed at his house and have some nice photos and such he sent me. His wife Hiya, BTW, was expecially delightful. But all things being fair, Franz was also a storyteller and was a participant in THE only documented case of false aerial victory claiming in history. How does that make me Dik Shepard??

I don't mind Jack.....facts are good. Although I have no idea what you guys are talking about!!!

I thought a lot of stories from Pearl Harbor were true but later found out on my own that they were not. It is disapointing but I'd rather know the truth then fiction. Oh, well.

Last edited by Nathan on Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Jack Cook]

It is disapointing but I'd rather know the truth than fiction. Oh, well.

Words to live by

[groundpounder]

ya know jack you are really coming across as an arrogant s.o.b.. i can now see why others on this board have questioned your integrity in the past. you tell me to do some research........well i cant find anything at all that backs up your side of the story. in fact i find it VERY difficult to accept that EVERYBODY else has been taken in by this elaborate ruse and you are the only man on the planet with the vision and the knowledge to see through this sham. i dont profess to be an expert on this matter,nor am i a particular authority on any other matters that happened 65 years ago, but i dont try to change recorded history due to the fact that i stumbled across an incident report that questioned the integrity of a squadron . so you are also saying that the pilot and surviving members of the B-17 crew are all in on this conspiracy, and it is all to cover up a non-event that makes for good press?!? i wonder if franz maybe took you up a little too high in that 108 and forgot to give you a mask. prove me wrong.

[Jack Cook]

Try researching Erwin Sawallisch

Here's a quote from the nephew of a JG-27 pilot.

This incident has come up before. The Luftwaffe pilot was Oberleutnant Franz Stigler of JG 27, a family friend since he flew with my uncle in Africa in 1942. I have had dinner with Franz and Charlie Brown in the past, and there is some controversy in certain circles as to the veracity of this whole story. Keep in mind that Stigler was a member of the schwarm which included Erwin Sawallisch and which was accused of faking claims in Africa. I believe this led to the unexplained death of Sawallisch. Also, considering that shooting down viermots at this stage of the war was considered a duty and honor in light of the death toll of German civilians, it doesn't seem likely that a Jagdwaffe pilot would willingly let his victim go, especially since consequences for doing so could be negative. I'm not saying that chivalrous acts did not occur, but the participants in this alleged incident have gotten alot of "mileage" out of it.

BTW the charts you refered to was part of a honors thesis
another fellow did.

[groundpounder]

the point that i am trying to make ,jack, is that this is the same quote that you published last year. this is ONE persons speculative opinion and by no way is it proven to be fact. If you are going to call several decorated vets liars and cheats then you had better have your ducks lined up and have some hard facts to back up your statements. you are prepared to discredit someone that you have portrayed as a family friend.i hope that your loyalty to your other friends goes a lot deeper. again, come up with some REAL FACTS and one account of this incident from your perspective(which you havent even done yet) and i will consider your perspective to possibly be valid. as far as i am concerned (and who cares what i think) you have done nothing but attempt to tarnish the image of a man that quite possibly did a great thing and allowed several men to live and go on to have lives and families of their own. again, prove me wrong with some hard facts or please stop trying to change history with unfounded speculation. 'nuff said........

[Jack Cook]

It's intersting that there's no real information on this so called encounter available. Nothing in th 448th BG records (since the a/c landed at their base at The B-17 in Seething, Norfolk. No photos of the damage no nothing. The fact the a/c was hit is not debated but the true circumstances are whether the accounts are accurate are . You can agree or not I really don't care. But, there's no proff either of whether or not this has it's poported to have. Franz's service in N. Africa raises many questions and the actions of his flight have been researched by a number of historians. The fact does remains that it was witnessed and throughly investigated. The group commander wanted them all court martialed but didn't for the good of the service. Whether you like it or not and it does bare credience to the later episode. That also don't change the fact that liked Franz and considered him a friend. If that doesn't meet your approval I'm sorry.