CAF Lockheed Hudson

[Dave Homewood]

I just found this link with a photo that alledges to be a Lockheed Hudson.

http://picasaweb.google.com/dawson.jero ... 2921505682

Is this a real Hudson? Or is it something else? It's certanly not a Hudson tail but the rest of the aircraft looks plausible. Is the tail off a Harpoon or something?

Is it a flyer??

[Steve Nelson]

I saw that aircraft outside the CAF hangar in Mesa, AZ four years ago. It's a PV-2 Harpoon with a faux Hudson paint job.

Here it is in the registry: http://www.warbirdregistry.org/pv2harpoonregistry/pv2harpoon-37507.html

SN

[jdvoss]

Yes, the aircraft is indeed a PV-2 Harpoon. Only FOUR PV-2's were ever delivered lend-lease and that was to the RNZAF!! I have checked my references and the RAF and RAAF obtained only PV-1's. Needless to say the pictured aircraft, although nicely painted, is grossly mismarked. It should have been painted in either RNZAF / USN / USMC schemes.

I often seen photos of USAAF PV-1's some of which are identified as Ventura's and some as Lexington's. Can anyone shed light on the name usage?

Unfortunatly the Lockheed Hudson is a rare aircraft in North America and I believe that there are only a couple of non-flying examples in Canada.

[Dave Homewood]

The four PV-2 Harpoons which arrived in New Zealand in 1945 were meant to be the first in a huge batch of about 200+ ordered but by the time they'd been assembled in Hawaii and delivered by RNZAF crews the Government here had decided to begin winding down our Bomber Reconnaissance squadrons as the nature of the war had changed and it was coming to an end. So the order for the Harpoons was cancelled but the four had already left Hawaii. They were only here in NZ for a very short time, perhaps just days, before returning to the USA. They never wore RNZAF colour schemes (which were always applied to the PV-1's coming the same route once they arrived in NZ at Whenuapai).

As for Hudsons, they're extremely rare anywhere, with only about 15 or less remaining worldwide. Here in NZ we have a handful of survivors in museums (Wigram, Ferrymean and MOTAT) and one in private hands, which is good as they were hugely important in NZ's war history.

Ventura was an RAF name for the next Lockheed twin. They, like the Hudson, were designed by Lockheed for the RAF with their specifications. The first lot were called simply the Lockheed Ventura 1. It's much like the Mustang story.

The designation of B-34/PV1 came only later when it joined the US forces. When they were taken on by the USAAF they were dubbed the B-34 Lexington by them. And later when the US Navy acquired them they called it the PV-1 and retained the name Ventura.

The RNZAF were initially supplied second hand Lexingtons that had served with the USAAF in the Aleutians, but they were so clapped out and fitted with incompatable navigation and radio sustems they were dedesignated RB-34's here, the R being for Restrcted. They were used only to train crews in the end and for instructional airframes for the groundcrews. The rest of our fleet were PV-1 Venturas. All of our fleet were called Venturas by the RNZAF, whether they were RB-34's or PV-1's as many of our crews had flown the B-34 type in Europe as the Ventura 1.

The Lexington/Ventura 1 had a glazed nose like a Hudson. The US Navy greatly improved the design and this eliminated the windows in the nose among other things. That's one easy way to tell the models apart. Of course the Lexington and the RAF's Ventura 1 and other models also differed in armament, radios, nav systems, etc. The RAF's early Venturas had the tall birdcage turret of the Hudson.

The Ventura was hated by crews in the RAF, they were quite unsuited to most of the roles they'd been designed for. But in the Pacific they were much better suited and well liked eventually when their fuel systems were sorted out. Another problem the RNZAF and others discovered was factory sabotage, but that's another story.

[henry]

nice info dave.

Another problem the RNZAF and others discovered was factory sabotage, but that's another story.

i for one have time for another story...

henry.

[Dave Homewood]

I have both read and been told by mechanics who worked on the Venturas about this. And I also believe the RAF found cases too, maybe even the US operators. When NZ first got its Venturas there was a spate of crashes which the cause could not be determined over. It was a case of fuel stopping getting to one engine, it would cut ad over it would go into the ground usually (the ftal crashes were usually on take off or at low level). This is one reason the RAF hated them, they were prone to terrible single engine reliability.

The RNZAF grounded the fleet and did a huge investigation. They determined that the fuel system was basically ok but had to be operated in a different way from the Hudson and no-one had really told them this. So they then began a real intense traning regime to educate pilots of the correct way to operate the fuel system, and the main problem was then solved.

However it was during this investigation while aircraft were thoroughly stripped and examined they found some serious flaws in aircraft which were determined could only have happened on the factory floor and were most likely sabotage. There were obviously a few nazi sympathisers working for Lockheed (as there were all over the USA) but the theory is it was more likely workers disgruntled about pay and hours and other workers rights. Selfish gits, killing innocents who were protecting their freedom. There was apparently sabotage in a lot of the aircraft factories in WWII. There was a thread on here only a few weeks back about it.

A couple of the unexplained crashes could possibly be put down to this, rather than fuel mismanagement, but who knows.

[Michel C-GNCJ]

Harpoon indeed... Looks nice though !


Here's a "real" one from Hendon:


Quite similar though...

[Dave Homewood]

That CAF Harpoon looks like some 1/72nd scale kitset that a kid has brush painted the wrong colours because he thought it would look better in RAF decals.

[Steve Nelson]

Here's a snapshot I took in '04. The owner went so far as to have Husdson-style windows painted on the nose (which the Harpoon never had.)

I don't believe it's a CAF aircraft..the CAF guys told us it was privately owned, and just hanging out on their ramp. I don't know if it's curretnly flying or airworthy.

SN

[Chris]

Ok, heres the scoop. The plane is owned by Bob Reid. He also owns the Mig15-UTI inside the CAF hangar. He's a good guy and the city was giving him the run-around about his planes so the CAF allows him to store them there and it gives them additional aircraft to display. Win-Win! The Mig is painted in the same colors as well. Anyway, Bob liked the look of the Ventura (B-34 I think) and wanted to go as far as he could, cosmetically at least to achieve that look. He wasn't shooting for authenticity. He just wanted a cool looking plane. It is not currently flyable and would take a fair amount of work and money to get it there but it is complete. I'm sure if someone made him the right offer, Bob would consider parting with it but it wouldn't be cheap. I think someday he would like to finish it and fly it but right now, he has other things going on. By the way, the windows aren't painted on. There are really windows there.

[jdvoss]

Dave:

Thank you so much for the nice summary of the PV-2 in the RNZAF albeit a short one at that. Also, on the clarification of USAAF Ventura / Lexington name usage. The USAAF also procured a variant of the B-34 called the B-37. Only 18 were produced and oddly enough one survives and is on display at the B-24 Museum in Pueblo, Colorado.

[Dave Homewood]

Thanks for the info on the Harpoon.

I am curious and keen to know more about the US squadrons that flew the Venturas and Lexingtons in the Pacific and in the Aleutians, especially the squadron/s that flew the B-34's that the RNZAF later got allocated. Does anyone here know much about the US service of the type?

[jdvoss]

Dave:

To my knowledge the USAAF did not use their B-34 / B-37's operationally
other than possible patrol along the US coasts. The majority were used in rather ancillary roles such as target tugs, photo-recon, observation and gunnery training. Many were transferred on to commonwealth countries through lend-lease agreements such as the RB-34 on display at MoTaT in Auckland. The USN and the USMC used them to quite an extent in the Pacific theater of WWII. I might suggest that you refer to a book "PV Ventura / Harpoon Units of WWII" by Alan Carey. It's available from Amazon.com

[jdvoss]

Dave:

A little research has revealed that in 1944 the Brazilian Air Force received FIVE PV-2 Harpoons for U-Boat patrol purposes. These aircraft were to be used as replacements for a USN PV sqdn (VB-129) which had returned to the US. To confuse things for all eternity the Brazilians called the aircraft the B-34A Harpoon !! They were assigned to 2nd Grupo de Bombardeio Medio and were stationed at Salvador Air Base. These aircraft supplemented the 15 PV-1's operated by Brazil. The last one was SOC in 1962.

So apart from the USN, Brazil and New Zealand were the only countries to receive the PV-2. Post WWII they were utilized by France, Italy, Peru, Portugal,Holland and later the JMSDF.

http://www.rudnei.cunha.nom.br/FAB/en/

[Dave Homewood]

Cheers, interesting stuff.