Lockheed F-5G PASM 1987
Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:28 am
Lockheed P-38L (F-5G) "Lightning" (422-8502)(USAAF 44-53247) (N90813) (Left museum in 1988)(Destroyed in hangar fire 05-17-90 at Musee de L'Air,
Le Borget, France)
bill word
Le Borget, France)
bill word
Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:42 am
Very nice pictures. Nice color scheme on the plane. Too bad it was lost in the fire.
My first thought when I saw the second picture was "they have grass at Pima?"
My first thought when I saw the second picture was "they have grass at Pima?"
Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:50 am
TAdan wrote:Very nice pictures. Nice color scheme on the plane. Too bad it was lost in the fire.
My first thought when I saw the second picture was "they have grass at Pima?"
Grass no. Weeds, yes.
James
boy im sure glad they didnt fly that thing
Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:04 pm
it could have been destroyed in a crash!-----oh wait-----it was destroyed in a fire in a museum...well I guess that is better... 
Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:55 pm
How did it end up in France? Was it a trade of somekind?
Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:26 pm
The way I understood it was, the Air Force Museum (the owner) made a trade with the museum in France for an aircraft they wanted. I assume that aircraft is now at Wright Pat on display. I do not know what the id of the aircraft is.
bill word
bill word
Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:29 pm
What a shame! Having a P-38 would be the crown jewel of an outstanding WW2 collection there at Pima!
Re: boy im sure glad they didnt fly that thing
Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:29 am
n5151ts wrote:it could have been destroyed in a crash!-----oh wait-----it was destroyed in a fire in a museum...well I guess that is better...
Yeah I am sure that is the case in why the P-38 is so rare.
by replying at all...
Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:05 pm
mustangdriver wrote:n5151ts wrote:it could have been destroyed in a crash!-----oh wait-----it was destroyed in a fire in a museum...well I guess that is better...
Yeah I am sure that is the case in why the P-38 is so rare.
you have already lost.........
Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:08 pm
Whatever dude.
B-26
Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:47 pm
bilwor wrote:The way I understood it was, the Air Force Museum (the owner) made a trade with the museum in France for an aircraft they wanted. I assume that aircraft is now at Wright Pat on display. I do not know what the id of the aircraft is.
bill word
Could that have been for the B-26 at W-P?
I thought that came from France in a trade.
Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:14 pm
Well, let's see. Based on data from the Warbird Registry, the loss of this airplane still leaves the score at 6 P-38s destroyed in crashes since 1970 (I don't count Lefty's as destroyed) versus 1 destroyed on the ground.
Does this mean flying a P-38 is 6 times riskier than grounding it? Of course not. It's much more risky than that. Since 1970, a total of 19 P-38s have been flying at one time or another, out of 26 that have existed in more or less intact and presentable condition. So the odds of a flying P-38 being wrecked in a crash during that time were 6 out of 19 (32%), whereas the odds of a P-38 being lost on the ground were 1 in 26 (4%).
So does that mean flying a P-38 is 8 times riskier than grounding it? Oh, no. Because most of those flying P-38s were not flying for most of the time. A more accurate assessment is to divide the number of crashes by the number of years that each P-38 was flying, and the number of ground losses by the number of years that each P-38 has spent some time on the ground. It turns out that we have had a total of 643 P-38/years since 1970 and a total of 198 flying-P-38/years (the latter being an estimate based on WR data and my knowledge of when each was truly flying, which the WR tends to overstate). So the actual risk is 6 crashes in 198 years flying, or 3% (one P-38 destroyed for every 30 years of active flying) versus 1 destroyed on the ground out of 643 P-38/years (0.15%).
Bottom line, the data are that flying a P-38 increases its risk of destruction by a factor of approximately 20x.
Analysis of most other WWII fighter types would probably lead to about the same conclusion.
August
Does this mean flying a P-38 is 6 times riskier than grounding it? Of course not. It's much more risky than that. Since 1970, a total of 19 P-38s have been flying at one time or another, out of 26 that have existed in more or less intact and presentable condition. So the odds of a flying P-38 being wrecked in a crash during that time were 6 out of 19 (32%), whereas the odds of a P-38 being lost on the ground were 1 in 26 (4%).
So does that mean flying a P-38 is 8 times riskier than grounding it? Oh, no. Because most of those flying P-38s were not flying for most of the time. A more accurate assessment is to divide the number of crashes by the number of years that each P-38 was flying, and the number of ground losses by the number of years that each P-38 has spent some time on the ground. It turns out that we have had a total of 643 P-38/years since 1970 and a total of 198 flying-P-38/years (the latter being an estimate based on WR data and my knowledge of when each was truly flying, which the WR tends to overstate). So the actual risk is 6 crashes in 198 years flying, or 3% (one P-38 destroyed for every 30 years of active flying) versus 1 destroyed on the ground out of 643 P-38/years (0.15%).
Bottom line, the data are that flying a P-38 increases its risk of destruction by a factor of approximately 20x.
Analysis of most other WWII fighter types would probably lead to about the same conclusion.
August
Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:50 pm
k5083= Mr. Spock 
Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:58 pm
k5083 wrote:Well, let's see. Based on data from the Warbird Registry, the loss of this airplane still leaves the score at 6 P-38s destroyed in crashes since 1970 (I don't count Lefty's as destroyed) versus 1 destroyed on the ground.
Does this mean flying a P-38 is 6 times riskier than grounding it? Of course not. It's much more risky than that. Since 1970, a total of 19 P-38s have been flying at one time or another, out of 26 that have existed in more or less intact and presentable condition. So the odds of a flying P-38 being wrecked in a crash during that time were 6 out of 19 (32%), whereas the odds of a P-38 being lost on the ground were 1 in 26 (4%).
So does that mean flying a P-38 is 8 times riskier than grounding it? Oh, no. Because most of those flying P-38s were not flying for most of the time. A more accurate assessment is to divide the number of crashes by the number of years that each P-38 was flying, and the number of ground losses by the number of years that each P-38 has spent some time on the ground. It turns out that we have had a total of 643 P-38/years since 1970 and a total of 198 flying-P-38/years (the latter being an estimate based on WR data and my knowledge of when each was truly flying, which the WR tends to overstate). So the actual risk is 6 crashes in 198 years flying, or 3% (one P-38 destroyed for every 30 years of active flying) versus 1 destroyed on the ground out of 643 P-38/years (0.15%).
Bottom line, the data are that flying a P-38 increases its risk of destruction by a factor of approximately 20x.
Analysis of most other WWII fighter types would probably lead to about the same conclusion.
August
Interesting research man.
Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:14 pm
Hello All
The hanger fire at Le Bouget, May 17, 1990 was an horrible day, many rarefull planes were destroyed, I interessed a short time ago this horrible day here is a list by my friend G. Pouillaude:
Amiot 351 117
Beechcraft E- 18S BA 68 F-CSBF
Bristol Bolingbroke 11-880-264 9947 9947
Dassault 320 Hirondelle 01 F-WPXB F-WPXB
De Havilland Tiger Moth 83097 R5238 K2570
Dewoitine VII 16
Dornier-Zeppelin R. IV 01
Douglas A- 26B- 15- DL Invader 6875 41-39162
Dumolard Autoplan 01 F-WFOQ F-WFOQ
Lockheed F- 5G Lightning 8502 44-53247
Henri Mignet HM 8 Pou du Ciel
Morane-Saulnier 147/149 29 F-AJFJ
Morane-Saulnier 1500 Epervier 01 F-ZJND F-ZJND
Morane-Saulnier 472 Vanneau 283
Nord 3202 42 F-MAJC AJC
Nord 3400 70 F-MMJA MJA
Nord 3400 99 F-MJBW JBW
Nord 3400 108 F-MJBY JBY
North Amerincan B- 25J- 30- NC Mitchell 108-37485 44-86701 N7681C
North American NAA- 64 Yale 164-2224 N3415C
Robin ATL 01 F-WFNA F-WFNA
Santos Dumont 14bis (Replica)
Schmitt Paul (1915)
SNCASO SO 30P Bretagne 18 F-ZABI BI
Stampe & Vertongen SV- 4C 82 F-BIZY F-BIZY
Supermarine Spitfire IX BS464 BS464
Westland Lysander 1589
Canadair T- 33 Silver Star 3
Bell 47G 040 F-YEAA
Hiller HU- 12A
Oemichen n° 6 Helicostar 6
Perrin Helicion III 01
Pescara F6 3 3
Breguet 905S Fauvette 32 F-CCJC F-CCJC
Breguet 906 01 F-CCGP F-CCGP
Castel 25S Biarritz 133 F-CRPO F-CRPO
DF 3108-68 Wulf Weihe 50 1 1 F-CAEI
DFS 108-49 Grunneau Baby II 10849
DFS 108-68 Wulf Weihe 3 F-CBGT F-CBGT
DFS 108-30 Kranich 1399
Schleicher Ka- 2 33
The inquiry has ever confirmed nothing but Lybian terrorists would have liked to burn a hanger or was stored the rests of DC-10 of UTA destroyed by a bomb Lybian in the Saharian desert but they made a mistake about hanger!
The hanger fire at Le Bouget, May 17, 1990 was an horrible day, many rarefull planes were destroyed, I interessed a short time ago this horrible day here is a list by my friend G. Pouillaude:
Amiot 351 117
Beechcraft E- 18S BA 68 F-CSBF
Bristol Bolingbroke 11-880-264 9947 9947
Dassault 320 Hirondelle 01 F-WPXB F-WPXB
De Havilland Tiger Moth 83097 R5238 K2570
Dewoitine VII 16
Dornier-Zeppelin R. IV 01
Douglas A- 26B- 15- DL Invader 6875 41-39162
Dumolard Autoplan 01 F-WFOQ F-WFOQ
Lockheed F- 5G Lightning 8502 44-53247
Henri Mignet HM 8 Pou du Ciel
Morane-Saulnier 147/149 29 F-AJFJ
Morane-Saulnier 1500 Epervier 01 F-ZJND F-ZJND
Morane-Saulnier 472 Vanneau 283
Nord 3202 42 F-MAJC AJC
Nord 3400 70 F-MMJA MJA
Nord 3400 99 F-MJBW JBW
Nord 3400 108 F-MJBY JBY
North Amerincan B- 25J- 30- NC Mitchell 108-37485 44-86701 N7681C
North American NAA- 64 Yale 164-2224 N3415C
Robin ATL 01 F-WFNA F-WFNA
Santos Dumont 14bis (Replica)
Schmitt Paul (1915)
SNCASO SO 30P Bretagne 18 F-ZABI BI
Stampe & Vertongen SV- 4C 82 F-BIZY F-BIZY
Supermarine Spitfire IX BS464 BS464
Westland Lysander 1589
Canadair T- 33 Silver Star 3
Bell 47G 040 F-YEAA
Hiller HU- 12A
Oemichen n° 6 Helicostar 6
Perrin Helicion III 01
Pescara F6 3 3
Breguet 905S Fauvette 32 F-CCJC F-CCJC
Breguet 906 01 F-CCGP F-CCGP
Castel 25S Biarritz 133 F-CRPO F-CRPO
DF 3108-68 Wulf Weihe 50 1 1 F-CAEI
DFS 108-49 Grunneau Baby II 10849
DFS 108-68 Wulf Weihe 3 F-CBGT F-CBGT
DFS 108-30 Kranich 1399
Schleicher Ka- 2 33
The inquiry has ever confirmed nothing but Lybian terrorists would have liked to burn a hanger or was stored the rests of DC-10 of UTA destroyed by a bomb Lybian in the Saharian desert but they made a mistake about hanger!